Pseudo-Atheist Shows that Watchtower is Hard to Shake Off (Long Post)

by Carl_Hernz 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Carl_Hernz
    Carl_Hernz

    After having read and responded to a person on this board who declares themselves to a
    dhere to an atheist ideology, I came away feeling that I’ve been discussing matters with
    a theistic dogmatist. It was quiet unusual because their attitude towards others was
    belittling of those who held a belief system different then their own, much the way the
    Witnesses tend to do so. In fact, it was exactly the way JWs do it, except the subject
    matter was different. In the eyes of the atheist, those who adopt Christianity were
    subjected to statements of ridicule—simplifying their beliefs to make it read as
    impossible to be taken seriously, not as declaration of what this individual believed
    but as the main subject of their post.

    While I am not against free speech nor atheism, I am alarmed not so much at the fact
    that it was Christianity that was treated this way, but that the atheist who, likely
    from a JW background of the rest of us, was still acting like a Witness, being judgmental
    in a manner not only unbecoming to other atheists but making a blanket statement
    condemning all Christian ideologies without any reference to how this related to
    JWs, posting this in the area “Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices: What Jehovah’s Witnesses
    believe and why they do what they do.” None of these things were touched upon by the
    self-proclaimed atheist, and the efforts of others to show that his original statements
    were erroneous were constantly ignored until 5 pages later where the atheist finally
    admitted to making unverifiable statements, but still not conceding to the rest of
    the data offered by others.

    This is not to be taken as an attack on the individual who made the original post.
    On the contrary, I believe in the innate right of all persons to be free to follow
    the dictates of the conscience in matters of belief or adoption of ideology. This
    right to such freedom of conscience should be protected by law, and no individual must
    be forced to act in any way contrary to their conscientious dictates. As a Christian and
    theologian I agree with the findings of the ecumenical council of Vatican II
    that declares that not every instance of positive atheism—the explicit rejection of
    God—is to be regarded as the result and expression of personal sin. In other words, the
    individual who takes such a stand not just as a synonym of the label skeptic, but as a
    conscientious enlightened philosophy for life may not be considered to be of the same sort
    of a person who is just acting obstinate in rebellion against the teachings of Christ.
    Why not denying the tenet of salvation through Christ, the Christian themselves should
    acknowledge the explicit difference between these two types of individuals.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses indoctrinate their adherents so thoroughly that those who leave
    their organization find they must unwind layer after layer of learned behaviors and
    attitudes towards others that reflect only the unique stand of the Witnesses to the
    non-Witness population. This is often true immediately in regards to religion, as those
    of us who leave may still literally fear entering other houses of worship, saying “God
    bless you” after someone sneezes, returning holiday wishes, or even keep from adopting
    religious views of other religious systems because we are still convinced that the Witnesses’
    definition of them is correct even though we no longer believe their religion is.

    This “post-traumatic” effect can also cause a person to adopt a pseudo-atheistic attitude
    based on the Witnesses reinterpretation of what should and should not be allowed in
    religious matters. When the judgmental behavior of the claimed atheist imitates the behavior
    of the Witness in demeaning all other belief systems but their own, the atheist may less
    likely have adopted a true trenchant form of atheism and may have adopted a stand stemming
    from an emotional reaction in rejection of Wathctowerism. Contrary to blaming the subject
    for their behavior, what is more insidious is that the techniques of indoctrination by the
    Witnesses can be so mind bending that life choices of survivors may take years to undo the
    damage caused by adopting the skewed view of realities adopted by the JWs. This can mean that
    a person may adopt or fail to adopt certain things in life still in fear of some condemnation
    taught by the Witnesses which in reality does not exist.

    The atheist did nothing wrong in declaring their stand against theism, by the way. But the is
    sues brought forth, the techniques used in the critique, and the arguments presented were quite
    foreign to the philosophy. They were limited in scope to what the Witnesses teach on religion,
    namely that true religion stems from the Bible. Even in the view of sola scriptura, such a view
    is considered highly radical and without merit, but this was ignored again and again by the atheist,
    and this belied the claim to enlightenment which is so important a part of a true conscientious stand.
    We must unlearn what the Witnesses teach, unlearn the behaviors and attitudes, and only then
    are we able to move forward in true freedom that is so necessary to live the life of our true
    selves, whether we adopt theism or reject it as a result.

    The Origins of Religion for the Christian

    To fully answer the atheist’s challenges, however, please permit me the chance to explain
    that from the Witness point of view your arguments do seem right. However the JW view is
    not based in reality. While the way you presented the Christian story may seem simplistic
    to you, even 'laughable' as you point out, this neither proves that Christianity is based on
    either your take on their "story" or on literal stories to begin with.

    Speaking in strict theological terms, Christianity is based on what is called “Revelation.”
    Revelation is God’s self-disclosure, the free action by which the Creator makes himself
    perceived by the intellect of humans. Revelation not only makes it possible for people to
    know God, it makes it possible for people to respond to God. It is a supernatural act, not
    only stemming from beyond the ability of human beings, but enabling people to love God far
    beyond their own natural capacity. While seen as complete in the person of Jesus Christ,
    Revelation has not been made fully explicit however. The full significance of Revelation is
    only grasped by means of Christian faith over the course of human history.

    In more practical terms, while an atheist might ridicule Christianity as based on “silly”
    stories or fictional mythologies, Christianity is actually the response to this self-disclosure
    of God, a human history that God “invades,” if you will, to show his literal involvement and
    concern for people. This concern has been played out in covenants—the covenant with Noah,
    with Abraham, with the nation of Israel, and finally with the Church. Theology calls this
    Revelation the “history of salvation.” It is this “history” that Christianity is built upon.

    The “culture of disbelief” may still thumb its nose at such an explanation. However, those
    that do cannot be expected to be taken serious when they attempt to discredit Christianity.
    Authentic rejection of Revelation can only be an educated one, one in which Revelation has
    been examined, tested, and found wanting. When this has not been done, even the individual’s
    claim to atheism is in question. Authentic atheism appeals to logic, whereas atheism that is
    adopted as an emotional response such as distaste for theism is no more authentic or reliable
    than theism or religion adopted via an emotional response. Unless the atheist truly knows
    what they are rejecting, their rejection is not an enlightened one, and their response is
    no different than a religious one based on credulity.

    Case in point, the mistake continues to be made by many that Christianity is based on the
    stories found in the Bible. While these stories are cherished, and while they move and shape
    the religion of Christians, these stories are but a part of Revelation. Christianity is about
    the self-disclosure of a God, a Person. While these stories explain this “invasion” of the
    mundane by the Divine, they are not all that encompasses Revelation. The collection and canon
    of Scripture itself proves this as there is no text within the Bible that declares all the
    books in its collection as destined to be part of Revelation. Some of the books seem
    completely absent of the thought. Part of God’s self-disclosure is found in the act of
    canonization itself, something that cannot be determined explicitly within the verses of Holy Writ.

    The historical actions of the Church are part of this Revelation in as much that the actions
    of the Church are inspired by God. This action of the Church is called “liturgy,” meaning the
    “work of the Church.” The Church has been guided by God to create, collect, and canonize the
    library of books that make up the Bible. While there is no text of Scripture that says that
    “such-and-such book and such-and-such letter” should be included in the Divine Library, the
    Church, by virtue of acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit, is authorized in its
    liturgical act to state which books are part of God’s self-disclosure and those that are
    not part of this Revelation.

    While recognized by other words in various denominations of Christianity, specifically
    those that adhere to sola scriptura, technically speaking all aspects of Revelation,
    those written and those performed by the Church liturgically, make up what is generally
    called Christianity’s “Tradition.” This differs from traditions, meaning customs developed
    by people that are not part of Revelation, and customs found within different ways of
    worship, but it is similar and often synonymous with Tradition as used by faiths like
    Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while encompassing even those liturgical acts of Protestantism
    that are also part of Revelation but may be described in different terms depending on the
    theology of the denomination.

    As to how any parts of written Revelation, namely Scripture, can be taken as accurate when
    some parts are considered by Christians themselves to be allegory, an atheist must remember
    that the word “bible” means “library.” Libraries are composed of different books. One would
    not read a book on American history the same way as one would read a novel by Jane Austin,
    expecting both to be of the same nature just because they are found in the same library,
    would they?

    The same is true regarding the Bible. Some of its books are history, sometimes very dry history.
    Other books are made up of laws. Then you have books of poetry, books of history told through
    allegory, and even fictionalized accounts of true stories, much as the famous The Miracle Worker
    is a fictionalized account of the true story of Anne Sullivan and Helen Keller.

    When an atheist therefore tries to discredit the Bible with an argument that doesn’t take this
    into account, of course the argument of the atheist is ignored and the atheist immediately
    discredited. Atheists are supposed to be enlightened people, and any enlightened and
    well-educated person would know that parts of the Bible are meant to be read allegorically,
    others as history, etc., because various forms of writing were employed to tell the religious
    truths found in Revelation. Recall that Revelation itself is transcendent and not yet fully
    understood. Something that was not yet explicit in human history could not be expected to be
    absolutely literal. Even if it all were literal, that which still transcends would still not
    appear so, would it?

    A side note is that truths found in the written portions of Revelation are in scholastic circles
    called “mysteries” and “myths,” but of course the vernacular definitions of these words is not
    what is meant. The word “mystery” means a truth that cannot be perceived entirely by means of
    human reasoning. The word “myth” means a story that tells the truth or a truth preserved in the
    medium of storytelling instead of the medium of history. Scholastically speaking almost all
    portions of the Gospel accounts are “myths” in that the writers did not attempt to paint a historical
    account of Jesus but a theological one. Again these terms should not be confused with the popular
    definitions of mystery and myths as used to describe detective novels or false stories.

    But it happens a lot, because critics of the Bible often get their hands on a theological work
    and then point to it as “proof” that Christians believe the Bible to be filled with “myths.” This
    is an uneducated mistake and grasping at straws because such a critic has acted in ignorance of
    higher study and its vocabulary as applied to the Scriptures.

    In Conclusion

    While I understand this is a very long post, I felt the need to help people realize that the
    Watchtower really cheats people of higher learning in all aspects, including theology.
    They are literally absent of it, in fact. Their indoctrination can also stay with us so much
    longer than expected because we forget that what we may believe (i.e., holding to the Witnesses’
    definition of the Trinity doctrine is one such example) is based not on reality but on
    pseudo-facts, if you will.

    While the information above surely differs in detail, and this is not an attempt to speak
    against other ideologies who insist on these differing details, the basic structure remains
    relatively the same for all Christians. How sad that the Witnesses have misrepresented such
    things or refused to acknowledge them in the first place. Their quest is not one for knowledge
    or truth but control and satisfying an ego that wants to have some special place in God’s
    arrangement by being privy to some knowledge that others do not or cannot have. It is my hope
    that this posting, long though it is, might help others to recognize the dangers of the JW
    religious system and the need for resources to help fully heal us as we make our journey to
    personal freedom and fulfillment.

  • marmot
    marmot

    I think I know why the person you were debating with got cranky. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but your writing style is soporific.

    Grand rambling declarations peppered with subordinate clauses that delight in hearing their own words.

    Take this one, for example:

    "This differs from traditions, meaning customs developed by people that are not part of Revelation, and customs found within different ways of worship, but it is similar and often synonymous with Tradition as used by faiths like Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while encompassing even those liturgical acts of Protestantism that are also part of Revelation but may be described in different terms depending on the theology of the denomination."

    Hear that thudding sound? That's the sound of people losing consciousness and hitting the floor.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Carl thanks for the warning: it is indeed a very long post.

    Is there some way you can condense your seemingly good points so that it can be read more quickly? My hunch is that, the longer a post is, the fewer people bother to read it - which is a shame because you appear to be making some really good points.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Hi Carl: Marmot does not speak for us all. I enjoy your reasoned, thorough approach and style.

    I think your sparring partner got cranky because you wouldn't meet him at his emotional level, preferring a more intellectual response. You wouldn't get all hot and bothered when he tried to make you angry, which is probably something he isn't used to. His "score" would have been if you would have "lost it", which is what he really seemed to be looking for, if you ask me.

    You can take the man out of JW, but you can't always get the JW out of the man...

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    *waves white flag*

    I don't want to get a rise out of Carl, nor have I wanted to in the past. I cannot prove that, you will have to take it on faith.

    But to address some points.

    Atheist dogmatism. This was discussed on another site recently if anyone's interested in seeing multiple responses.

    http://richarddawkins.net/article,1783,Atheism-is-a-religion-and-youre-as-bad-as-the-fundamentalists,RichardDawkinsnet

    My personal response is that if I am dogmatic, it's limited to words that nobody has to read.

    without any reference to how this related to
    JWs, posting this in the area "Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices: What Jehovah’s Witnesses
    believe and why they do what they do."

    In this area of the board, people chat about beliefs in general, not just what the JWs believe. The title is misleading for sure, but it's just been that way for years here. It seems odd that you would choose my topic to bring this up while there are numerous others that do the same thing.

    the efforts of others to show that his original statements
    were erroneous were constantly ignored until 5 pages later where the atheist finally
    admitted to making unverifiable statements, but still not conceding to the rest of
    the data offered by others.

    I made a wrong call in saying Christianity was based on the Bible, as in the book. I still believe that particular religion rests on the stories.

    I escaped the JWs nine years ago, and never really gave religion much thought. Then the 'new atheist' movement got started, and I saw they made some good points about how we automatically respect religious beliefs. They questioned why this was the case, especially as anything else can be open to ridicule or disrespect. Choice in music, choice of favourite president, people's cooking, people's clothing, hairstyles, belief in alien abductions, belief in ghosts- everything else can be spoken about in whatever way we wish, yet a wall of respect surrounded religion. They thought it was well past time the wall came down, and I agreed.

    I think most here will be aware of the story in the news recently about the young mother who died after refusing a blood transfusion. Her religious beliefs got her killed. The Governing Body has blood on its hands. Do we say 'Well it's okay, it was her religion' or do we see her as the victim of false beliefs? Many here would say the latter. Many here would not give the JWs religious beliefs any respect. So if other religions have blood on their hands also, there are some here who will speak out against that too.

    The post in question was not based on atheist logic or a more detailed look at what the arguments are for a god. For that, you will have to search my post history. I have had many conversations which get into the nitty gritty.

    Regarding the revelations from Yahweh that Christianity supposedly rests on, is a Christian able to tell me what they feel the religion of Islam is based on?

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Carl,

    This part I don't get. (BTW I'm an atheist.)

    The “culture of disbelief” may still thumb its nose at such an explanation. However, those that do cannot be expected to be taken serious when they attempt to discredit Christianity. Authentic rejection of Revelation can only be an educated one, one in which Revelation has been examined, tested, and found wanting. When this has not been done, even the individual’s claim to atheism is in question.

    To me the burden of proof still lists on those who claim the revelation. How can revelation be "disproved"? Into what labratory can we take the believer's mind so as to examine the veracity of a revelation from heaven?

    And do we need to investigate each and every claim of revelation, including Hindu, animist, Native American tribal religion, etc., etc.? You're setting up an endless goose chase here.

    Atheism is simply not believing. It's not going around disproving everyone's religion. Most atheists don't even want to. I have many Christian friends, whose religion I certainly don't share, but I would never dream of trying to take away their belief. But IF THEY ASK why I think a certain way, I will be happy to share!

  • steve2
    steve2

    Carl,

    Please come off your high horse and read Dawkins' poweful The God Delusion. You've made some extremely convenient assumptions about athiests - all of which side-step the question of whether God (or small g, if some prefer) exists.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Regarding the revelations from Yahweh that Christianity supposedly rests on, is a Christian able to tell me what they feel the religion of Islam is based on?

    I think an individual who has done some comparative religious study can answer questions on a number of religiouis. I think a typical Christian is not even able to articulate what their beliefs are based on. The McDonald's counter guy can't tell me what's in the beef.

    I think demanding that only Christians can speak to what Christianity is based on is not very useful. Most of the Christians I know are not scholarly, and the JWs I know are narrowly aware of the JW dogma (and most simply don't follow the intricacies of scriptural interpretation on chronology, "classes", etc. - posters to this board widely excepted, of course).

    Yes, a Christian who has made the effort to research, participate, or otherwise become educated on Islam will be able to answer questions on the basis of Islam. Especially those that were raised in one faith and converted to the other - these are perhaps the BEST sources for questions like this. Besides, the bases of these two example religions are not that different.

    Being a Christian does not automatically give one insight into the exegesis of the faith. Hopefully, a Christian can tell you what it means to them to be a part of that faith, but the insistence of membership as a certification of knowledge is not realistic or useful.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Gopher: I got the impression Carl is explaining the underpinnings and development of a faith, rather than giving forth an argument for its' proof...

    Most Athiest I've spoken with have had a "devotional" nature to the non-existence of a god; most Agnostics have had a lack of belief or conviction, without the negative assertion. So, in those terms, the Athiests I have known have had strong beliefs about (the non-existence) of God, similar to the relgious' (positive) assertions. I have known a few Athiests just as dogmatic as, well, most JWs.

    It's the Agnostics that I've known that I've found to be the most open to thoughtful conversations on comparative religion...but with a tune-up maybe I'd get better mileage.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Seretonin: You raise an interesting point - who's to blame when a brain-washed person makes a life-ending choice? Who has responsibility? Who is responsible for our actions, based on belief? Is there shared blame?

    Are racists responsible for their racist thoughts when they've been brain-washed to think of themselves as the chosen ones?

    Are suicides responsible for their own deaths when they kill themselves because their significant other left them?

    Are humanitarians responsible for their good works when they've been brain-washed into thinking it's "the right thing to do"?

    It seems easier to blame the church that promulgated the belief (in "no blood") for this mother's death. This "faceless" organization that has caused so much harm in the world certainly makes an easier target of our anger.

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