God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    It's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, I'd love to know why because I'd like to make this more solid. I don't think I've covered everything yet. Also if you just have helpful pointers. Thanks.

    ________________________________________

    God-guided Evolution.

    Around 150 years ago, Darwin proposed the theory of evolution to explain how living things came to be so complex and diverse. After the evidence for evolution piled up, Christians were left with a hard choice. Accept that the god of the Bible did not create us, or reject evolution out of ignorance.

    However, there are those who cannot pick a side, and have come to believe Yahweh 'created' humans and other animals by guiding evolution.

    The first important thing to understand is that evolution is blind. There is no guiding force. It can all be explained by random mutations and natural selection. To use one example, let's imagine a species of butterfly. After living in their habitat for several years without much trouble, a disease suddenly takes hold and kills most of them off. But a few survive - their genes are different. The random mutation in their DNA makes them immune to the disease, random mutation that makes every animal of a species slightly different from the others. They end up being the only ones left who can repopulate the species. Some time later, the butterflies are back to their usual numbers, but with one difference. They are ALL immune to the disease. The random mutation was passed on to them all, instead of being watered down in the gene pool as it would have been normally if the disease hadn't killed most of them. In other words, these butterflies evolved, and it all happened naturally. No god required.

    Much of the time, species do not survive drastic change. In fact, evolution is so blind that 99% of all animals that have ever been on the Earth are now extinct. There certainly doesn't seem to be a holy force behind it at all. If there is, it can only be described as a lazy or inept one.

    But what about humans? Did God focus on just our species? If we're talking about some kind of deist god, I can accept that as one possibility- just as I can accept it may have been possible a giant slug living on the dark side of Pluto guided human evolution with special mind powers or that aliens in invisible spacecraft orbiting the Earth guided human evolution with hi-tech gene changing rays and machinery that sees into the future. I don't see those things as very probable, but I certainly admit I cannot disprove any of that happened.

    But here we're talking about the god of the Bible, and the beliefs involved do not allow for Yahweh-guided evolution. According to the Bible, and every Christian I know, Jesus died for our sins. More accurately, he died for our inherited sins. So let's have a look at this 'original sin'.

    We all know the story. Adam and Eve, the first man and woman on Earth, sinned by eating fruit from a forbidden tree, after which they doomed all mankind.

    First, to address those who believe this really happened. There are so many questions that arise if one sees this story as a real historical event.

    If Adam and Eve were here 6,000 years ago (which they had to be if you follow the genealogical line from Adam to Jesus), then they weren't the first humans. We were on the scene much earlier than that.

    If woman was already around, then what is the point of the story of man being lonely, and God making him a woman from his rib?

    Adam is supposed to be the one who named the animals. Are we really supposed to believe that no one had named them until 6,000 years ago?

    God 'cursed' the snake and made it crawl on its belly. What was it doing before 6,000 years ago? Flying?

    Adam and Eve didn't realize they were naked. In a world full of clothed people, they didn't realize they were naked?

    Did people between 6 and 4,000 years ago really live such long lifespans? 895 years, 777 years, 969 years, etc. Doubtful. Before the 'original sin', was everyone living such long lifespans?

    Were people without pain in childbirth until 6,000 years ago?

    If we are paying for the sins of Adam because we are his descendants- does this mean most of the planet doesn't have to worry because it's more likely we're the descendants of other people?

    People had already made up gods earlier than 6,000 years ago. Why did the real God wait so long before turning up and saying 'Hey guys, I'm the real one. I know I've let you worship other gods for thousands of years because you knew nothing of me, but now I'm a bit angry about it, so stop. Oh yeah, don't murder either. What, you don't like murder already and you wouldn't have got this far if you did? But I'm the moral law giver! Ah screw it, I'm killing you all for talking back to me!'

    I know those exact words aren't in the Bible, but neither is any mention of evolution, and many people think it's okay to add that in, so it's only fair that I should be able to add to the Bible too.

    Maybe Adam and Eve were around much earlier than that. It has been suggested that the genealogical line from the Gospels may skip generations in order to shorten the account. In Matthew, the word 'father' is used. Could this really mean 'great great great (add however many 'greats' you think would be appropriate) grandfather'? Could the word 'son' in the family line of Luke 3 stand for 'great great great (again, add however many 'greats' you like) grandson'? If so, it becomes pointless to include any of the names. With all the gaps in the family line, it may aswell not be in there at all as it is no longer reliable for showing how Jesus was related to David or Abraham or Adam.

    The fact it is in there shows that the writers wanted to show the link- and they thought the line was a short one. Only 4,000 years long.

    More questions come up. Why does the Bible use the word 'son' or 'father' in this instance, yet uses words such as 'grandson' or 'grandfather' elsewhere in the Bible? Why does Matthew 1:17 say 'there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.'? No mention of skipping generations there. It seems to be giving precise details of the family line that support a 4,000 year timespan. Precise details can also be found right back to Adam. Genesis 5:3-32 has the family line, complete with the number of years that passed before each had a child, from Adam to Noah's sons Shem, Ham and Japheth. Genesis 11:10-26 continues the line from Shem to Abram (Abraham). The writers go out of their way to show exactly how much time passes, and anyone who disagrees has much to explain.

    But even if we go out of our way to give the benefit of the doubt and accept that the original sinners were earlier humans, it needs to be understood that there were never two original humans. That isn't how evolution works. Determining exactly when our species became 'human' is difficult enough. We are constantly evolving. It would be like saying your grandparents were a different species to your parents.

    Perhaps God chose one couple from all the humans to test. If God was testing this one couple and they failed his test (which he would have known they would, seeing as this is God!) why put hardships on the rest of the humans around at the time who didn't fail him? Christians say God wants people to be good, yet in this case, even if they were, their efforts were in vain because God tested the ones he knew would fail. The logic also goes against the story of Soddon and Gomorrah, where God says if even one person can be found worthy, he won't take drastic action.

    Obviously most of us are not 'Adam and Eve's' descendants, and their sins haven't been passed on to us. Therefore Jesus can't have died for all our sins. The sacrifice for all humanity is meaningless.

    What then, was the whole point of Jesus coming to Earth and dying on a cross?

    Moses (or whoever used that name) wrote the Genesis account around 3,500 years ago. How the story reached him by word of mouth over many thousands of years (from the early human sinners) is impressive. But what is even more impressive is that early humans hadn't even developed language! If God revealed the story to Moses, why did he wait so long before doing so? On that point, why lie about the family line going from the first humans onwards? Was it an error made by those who copied the Bible? Are we to believe that the story was passed orally for many, many thousands of years without error, then strangely enough error creeped in in the last few thousand years after the account had been written down, and was therefore less likely to have been tainted?

    I find it baffling how Christians think God has given special consideration to the human species. How humble is it to think

    that the creator of the universe has blessed one species out of millions on one planet out of billions? It's funny how the dinosaurs were around for much, much longer than us and had control of the planet too. Maybe they were inspired to write a dino Bible.

    The Bible is symbolic, metaphorical, and so on, claim some who still cling to their outdated beliefs. Jesus' death has meaning that we will understand one day, they say. If a person can make much of their book a mystery yet still state that it has something to do with a god, that kind of thinking can be applied to any book. Goldilocks and the Three Bears may aswell be a metaphor from God we don't understand yet. The Book of the Dead's mysterious writings may aswell be metaphors from Osiris or Ra. We may aswell all believe in Allah or Atum if all that's needed is a story of creation that has nothing to do with reality, mixed in with more cryptic stories. Now wouldn't that be a silly thing to do?

  • B_Deserter
    B_Deserter

    My stance is that if you want to believe that God manipulated the environment just right in order for man to evolve, that's fine. As long as you realize there's no supporting evidence for that conclusion, there's no evidence to the contrary. It's unfalsifiable. Evolution is silent about God's existence. It doesn't require a belief in God, but it doesn't forbid it either.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    Initially I should say that I agree with you, but I have a few pointers:

    After the evidence for evolution piled up, Christians were left with a hard choice. Accept that the god of the Bible did not create us, or reject evolution out of ignorance.

    I think (if this is an article you're writing for other purposes than this forum alone) that you have to take into account what audience you'd like to reach with it. There's a danger of only 'preaching to the choir'. Most people who already believe in evolution and in addition have done (at least a superficial) study of religion will agree with you, and have probably had the same thoughts on the subject at one time or another. But if you are trying to reach believers; theists, then I think you need to tread more softly at the beginning. Most Christians will probably roll their eyes at the above sentence and stop reading there, just like I roll my eyes and quit reading after having read the first few sentences of a JCanon post where he starts out saying that not bothering to read through all his posts won't help us on Judgment day.

    On to the subject. I think - if this is an article - you should briefly explain the mechanism of evolution even more clearly than in the butterfly example. Most Christians and other believers don't know how evolution works. They think they know, just as I once thought I knew, but it's often a mish mash of things they have read in tabloid - although scientific at the core - newspaper articles, what religious leaders have told them, and what they have managed to think up for themselves based on the two. What they end up with is often some sort of Lamarckian view of evolution, instead of the Darwinian one. Which means they think the giraffe got a long neck because it needed to get a long neck, etc., and that acquired characteristics are inherited. So I believe such an article needs to explain in relatively simple terms exactly how evolution actually works, if it is meant to be read by religious people. The butterfly example is not a bad one, I just don't think it's sufficient to make people really understand how it works.

    There certainly doesn't seem to be a holy force behind it at all. If there is, it can only be described as a lazy or inept one.

    Again - if the article is aimed at believers, I think you should hold these thoughts for the "punch line" closer to the end of the article. Explain why first and let it subconsciously seep in. Similarly, a little later on in the article, I think you should go straight from "But what about humans?" to "We all know the story", list the details, and afterwords explain why this cannot be. Overall, leave the "punch line" for last. It all should be explained first, or you'll lose the readers you intend to reach (if they are supposed to be believers). More or less a reorganization of the contents, not a big change of the article's content.

    Other than that, I think it's a nice article.

    I'd like to add something to the following:

    Adam is supposed to be the one who named the animals. Are we really supposed to believe that no one had named them until 6,000 years ago?

    -You can take it a few steps further: Adam named all the animals (Gen 2:19). If we give biblical apologists a break, and say that there were only about 10.000 species - or 'kinds' - at the time (the fewer 'kinds' you say there were, the more severe a 'super evolution' you must believe happened to account for the species now known, so saying there were fewer 'kinds' to name does not help) how long would Adam have to take to name them all? How did he keep track? Did he write it down? Oral tradition seems to have been more popular at the time, so he must have told his children the names of all the animals. If not, and the names were not kept, there would be no need to name them in the first place. So he told his sons the names he had come up with for all the animals. Some task! Now - how would he even remember? And how would he be able to physically point them all out to his sons and say "That animal there is a [....]", ten thousand times (actually more likely ~20.000 times, since male and female often look very different)? Adam used to be perfect (at least some claim, not all), so let's say he was able to memorize them all. But what about his imperfect children? If Adam, or one of his ancestors, wrote all the names down with detailed descriptions of the animals, sadly that book/scroll/tablets has never been available, not even to Moses.

  • justhuman
    justhuman

    There is nothing wrong in God-Guided evolution

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Interestingly, in his book The New Creation, Russell actually allowed for the possibility of theistic evolution, at least for the lower animals.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Excellent points Awakened, thank you.

    Others are saying God-guided evolution isn't an issue. If it's a deist god they're talking about, I agreed that was a possibility. But the Christian god? Can anyone answer some of the questions that raises?

  • BurnTheShips
  • BurnTheShips
  • BurnTheShips
  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    seratonin,

    I found this article about Christians and evolution interesting. It gives one way that Christians view it and possibly may help answer some of your Q's. Here it is; Peace, Lilly

    Can a Christian believe in evolution?

    Science & Christian Belief, examines...

    Can a Christian believe in evolution?

    Perhaps we should start by defining the term ‘evolution’. Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859 as a theory to explain the origins of biological diversity. And at the time, that’s all it was - a biological theory that Christians were in fact quick to declare as a biblical doctrine of creation.

    Asa Gray, professor of natural history at Harvard and a committed Christian, had long been Darwin’s confidante and organised the publication of The Origin of Species in North America. Christians such as Gray maintained that God had providentially arranged the biological processes of evolution to bring about God’s purposes in creation. B B Warfield, the Princeton theologian and prominent defender of the inspiration of Scripture, spoke of himself as a ‘Darwinian of the purest water’. The British historian James Moore writes that ‘with but few exceptions the leading Christian thinkers in Great Britain and America came to terms quite readily with Darwinism and evolution’, and the American sociologist George Marsden reports that ‘with the exception of Harvard’s Louis Agassiz, virtually every American Protestant zoologist and botanist accepted some form of evolution by the early 1870s’.

    So given this initially warm reception, why did hostility towards evolution by Christians gain such prominence in the USA a century later, even giving rise to ‘text-book battles’ in which legal attempts have been made in some states to ban the teaching of evolution in schools?

    Unfortunately, as often happens with the big scientific theories, evolution has become encrusted with all kinds of ideological baggage down the years.

    Herbert Spencer (1820-1903) was a great populariser of evolution in North America in the latter part of the 19th century, selling 370,000 books, but unfortunately he tried to make evolution into a ‘theory-of-everything’, in which the entire universe was ascending towards ultimate perfection. It was Spencer (not Darwin) who coined the term ‘survival of the fittest’, a notion that was to be misapplied with such terrible consequences by the Kaiser during the First World War and then by Hitler in the Third Reich.

    It's up to scientists to find out how God carries out His creative handiwork

    Today when Richard Dawkins recounts how Darwinian evolution enables him to be an ‘intellectually fulfilled atheist’, this only reinforces the idea that there must be something deeply anti-Christian about evolution. But the fact that evolutionary theory has been called upon to justify such a wide range of ideologies as communism, capitalism, racism and militarism, some of them mutually exclusive, should alert us to the dangers of extrapolating scientific theories into arenas in which they actually have little or nothing to say.

    So is it possible to be a Christian and believe in evolution? Certainly, as long as ‘evolution’ refers not to some secular philosophy, but to the biological theory describing how God has created all living things. This explains why the vast majority of Christians who are active in biological research today have no problem with incorporating evolutionary theory within their belief in God as Creator. Our task as scientists is to describe the actions of God in the created order as accurately as we can. We are called by God to be truthtellers. If an evolutionary process provides the best explanation for the origins of biological diversity, then that’s fine - it is not our job to second-guess God as to how He should have made things, but to describe what He has actually done.

    Evolution combines together two mechanisms. First, variation is introduced into genes (stretches of DNA) by various mechanisms; and second, the consequences of these mutations are tested out by the criterion of reproductive success, the extent to which mutations impact on the ability of individual organisms to generate offspring. Taken overall, this is a tightly regulated process, as far from the idea of random chance as can be imagined. As the Cambridge evolutionary biologist Simon Conway Morris points out in his recent book Life’s Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe, if you replay the tape of life again, then what you’ll get is something remarkably similar to what we have now.

    If you imagine the world as a matrix of millions of little boxes representing ‘design space’, then some of those boxes will get filled up, but not others. Eyes have evolved independently many times during evolution. Such findings are entirely consistent with the actions of a creator God who has intentions and purposes for His creation.

    But of course evolutionary processes are not there to teach us morality; Christians are called to behave like children of God, according to God’s moral law, as revealed in the Bible. Conversely Christians should not abuse the Bible by trying to treat it as a scientific textbook, when scientific writing as we understand it now did not even get going until thousands of years after the early chapters of Genesis were written. It is anachronistic to treat biblical texts as if they were articles out of a contemporary scientific journal. The biblical creation accounts tell us timeless truths about God’s purposes for His creation in general, and for humankind in particular. It is up to scientists to find out how exactly God carries out His creative handiwork.

    Some Christians think belief in evolution undermines the uniqueness of humankind and the reality of evil and the fall. Not so. The Genesis account portrays Adam and Eve as Neolithic farmers. It is perfectly feasible that God bestowed His image on representative Homo sapiens already living in the Near East to generate what John Stott has called Homo divinus, those who first enjoyed personal fellowship with God but who then fell most terribly from their close walk with God (Genesis 3.8). All those who disobey God and trust in their own wisdom in place of God’s law reiterate the historical fall in their own being (Ezekiel 28.11-19).

    Those many Christians today who are active in the biological sciences are amazed as we uncover God’s creative actions in our daily research. We do not look for God in the gaps in our scientific knowledge, but instead worship God for the whole of His created order, including those remarkable evolutionary processes that God has used for His creative purposes

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