I think Sero, despite leaving the JW's, displays some of the black/white literal-mindedness that they do. Not to mention the ingrained JW understanding of sola scriptura (despite the fact that in practice they are not).
God-guided Evolution
by serotonin_wraith 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BurnTheShips
Hmm. Except I'm not talking about the creation story. I'm talking about man's fall, whether it was a couple called Adam and Eve who ate forbidden fruit or a group of humans who sinned in some other way 6,000 years ago.
I am referring to the Genesis account-which includes the Creation and the Fall.
BTS
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drew sagan
.Either way, The Christian faith is not a religion of the book. Christianity is the religion of the Word of God, not a written and mute word, but an incarnate and living being. The book is about the faith and the revelation, not the faith itself or the revelation itself.
I would also add (possibly to the shock of the 'reform' minded) that it is also the tradition of passing along the faith and revelation.
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serotonin_wraith
I'll put it simply.
Was there an 'original sin'?
If you answer yes, then what about the questions that raises?
If you answer no, why did Jesus die if not for our inherited sins?
I don't think I'm acting like a stubborn JW to ask that (on that note I was a 'born in' who never 'assimilated' with them). It just looks like a genuine question to ask.
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BurnTheShips
Was there an 'original sin'?
Yes there was original sin.
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serotonin_wraith
In that case:
1) Were people without pain in childbirth until 6,000 years ago?
2) Did people between 6 and 4,000 years ago really live such long lifespans? 895 years, 777 years, 969 years, etc. Before the 'original sin', was everyone living such long lifespans?
3) As most of us are not 'Adam and Eve's' descendants (whether that's a group of humans or a couple), their sins haven't been passed on to us. Therefore Jesus can't have died for all our sins. Does the sacrifice for all humanity become meaningless, and if not, why was it necessary?
4) People had already made up gods earlier than 6,000 years ago. Why did the real God wait so long before making himself known?
5) Natural disasters, things such as earthquakes and tsunamis, or things such as diseases - were they a result of the 'original sin'?
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lovelylil
Sero;
Here are my answers to your Q's. I am sure others will have thier own answers.
1) Were people without pain in childbirth until 6,000 years ago?
No. Details in this account are not to be taken as literal.
2) Did people between 6 and 4,000 years ago really live such long lifespans? 895 years, 777 years, 969 years, etc. Before the 'original sin', was everyone living such long lifespans?
I don't know and frankly it doesn't matter anyway. What point are you trying to prove with this? Is it that parts of the Bible are not to be taken as literal? I already stated that.
3) As most of us are not 'Adam and Eve's' descendants (whether that's a group of humans or a couple), their sins haven't been passed on to us. Therefore Jesus can't have died for all our sins. Does the sacrifice for all humanity become meaningless, and if not, why was it necessary?
You are wrong with this one. If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then ALL the rest of mankind ARE descendents of them and we ALL inherited original sin. Which is what the bible says happened. Whether or not Adam and Eve were literally the first two people who existed or are representative of the first early humans (a group) it does not change the fact that original sin somehow entered into the world. And we are descendents of whomever the first humans were, thus we inherited that sin.
Again, not all the details are literal. Unless you believe there really was a fruit tree that controlled the knowlege of good and evil? The purpose of the fall "story" is to explain in simple terms that original sin entered the world. That is the literal truth God wanted us to know, but it is told in symbolic, figurative language.
4) People had already made up gods earlier than 6,000 years ago. Why did the real God wait so long before making himself known?
Who says he waited so long before he made himself known? God had indeed communicated in different ways to humans during different time periods. You are mistaken again for thinking the Bible is the only way God "communicated" to mankind.
Hebrews 1:1,2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
5) Natural disasters, things such as earthquakes and tsunamis, or things such as diseases - were they a result of the 'original sin'?
Only if you believe God uses these things to punish mankind for their sins. I personally do not believe that. I believe these things are freak acts of nature gone wrong and fall under the category of "unforseen occurances".
Peace, Lilly
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Awakened07
Let me expand a little bit:
The account of creation in Genesis was described according to the reality of the people of that time and place, if God were to inspire such a thing today I am sure it would be in today's language and cosmology. ... That is not to say it was a metaphor, it describes real events that really happened, but described in a manner that the people of that time would grasp. It is the same when we explain something to a small child today. We use forms they can understand while conveying the essence of what we are communicating to them.
I have to disagree with this. These people were apparently taught directly by God himself, the Creator of the universe (and beyond). If the words of the Bible were inspired by God and therefore contains divine truths (and by now I'm guessing you'll say "no, I don't believe that", but most Christians do), there should be detailed, absolute truths there, also about the natural world. The natural world hasn't really changed since back then, so what was true then is true today. That 'Pi' is 3.14159265 and not 3.0 is not something we have "come up with recently", it just is and was back then. I'm not saying that our current understanding of the universe is 100%, but what little detailed info the Bible contains should be totally accurate and verifiable (even more so than today's science if there's something we don't know), coming from God. I don't understand the notion that these people were unable to grasp detailed and accurate explanations of the world. Why should they be? I'm talking about what the Israelites were taught, and that's only a few thousand years ago. There's nothing that would suggest they were less intelligent than we are today. There would be no need to sugar coat things or wrap it up in parables, analogies and allegories. One could say that "they were only a simple desert people", but if God had told them basically what a school kid is taught today from the start, they would be able to 'grasp' it just fine. They were all (or should be) enrolled in the finest school of all time; God's!
Additionally I don't understand how people decide what parts are not to be taken literally and what parts are. If the pain of childbirth (part of the punishment for sinning) is just a 'story', then I don't see why the rest of the Adam/Eve thing isn't.
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serotonin_wraith
Thanks for the answers lovelylil.
No. Details in this account are not to be taken as literal.
So there's always been pain in human childbirth? I agree with that. So what does this mean? Doesn't it mean that God designed a world in which that pain was just a part of it, and it has nothing to do with when sin entered the world? Same with miscarriages, mothers dying during childbirth, babies being born deformed, etc. That was the plan right from the start - to make us suffer, even when we hadn't sinned!
Also, what in the world is Genesis 3:16 talking about then? If it's not to be taken as literal, what is really being said? What's it code for?I don't know and frankly it doesn't matter anyway. What point are you trying to prove with this? Is it that parts of the Bible are not to be taken as literal? I already stated that.
Well the answer is no, humans were not living such long lifespans before the 'original sin'. So again, that's how God set it up. We were never meant to live very long, and it wasn't a punishment for sinning, because it was this way before sin entered the world. Also, looking at Genesis 5:3-32 and all the specific years mentioned, what is that code for? If it doesn't mean what it's saying, exactly what does it mean?You are wrong with this one. If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then ALL the rest of mankind ARE descendents of them and we ALL inherited original sin. Which is what the bible says happened. Whether or not Adam and Eve were literally the first two people who existed or are representative of the first early humans (a group) it does not change the fact that original sin somehow entered into the world. And we are descendents of whomever the first humans were, thus we inherited that sin.
There was no first couple.
If it was a representative group, we're still not all descendants of this group. Humans had spread far and wide.Again, not all the details are literal. Unless you believe there really was a fruit tree that controlled the knowlege of good and evil? The purpose of the fall "story" is to explain in simple terms that original sin entered the world.
I don't have a problem with that being a metaphor, I'm just talking about sin, whatever the first was supposed to be.Who says he waited so long before he made himself known?
According to the Bible, it started when he was communicating with Adam and Eve (or the representative group of humans he knew would sin) 6,000 years ago. If it was earlier than that, it would seem mankind was getting on fine without sin until God decided to test those he knew would fail.Only if you believe God uses these things to punish mankind for their sins. I personally do not believe that. I believe these things are freak acts of nature gone wrong and fall under the category of "unforseen occurances".
Nor do I, but as with 1 and 2, it shows that these things were just how God set things up. For us to suffer occasionally on an unstable planet. We could have been perfect and it would have still been like this.