The Bible - God's Word or Man's? - What Convinces You?

by sweet pea 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

Vinny

"Vinny - "your short list?" I'd hate to see your long list! :-)

v
Sad emo

Sad Emo - If some parts were 'God-breathed' because they contain wisdom, then any book that contains wisdom must be too? How do you account for secular wisdom that is not God-breathed? or Holy writings from the far east for example, are they not God-breathed too? which God?
Yes they can be 'God-breathed' (ie God speaking through them) - he can speak through whatever medium he likes, even completely secular stuff! If you gain wisdom from it, something that makes you a better person/closer to God, then I regard it as 'God-breathed'.
If you believe in a creator who made everything, wouldn't he be the creator/origin of wisdom too however he reveals it?
serotonin_wraith

Let's see...
It says the sun came after the Earth. False.
It says man was made 6,000 years ago. False.
It says witches are real. They are not.
It says there was a worldwide flood. There was not.
It says bats are birds. They are not.
It says demons inhabit human minds. No, it's mental illness.
It says very unscientific things such as stars falling to Earth. Think about that one. First, ONE star would wipe everything out on Earth before it even reached us, and will the stars be travelling faster than the speed of light to reach us? It says the moon will not give IT'S light. The moon doesn't give any light. It reflects the light of the sun. "Metaphor blah blah metaphor!" - Well even with a metaphor, you'd think it would be more accurate than that!
What else? Oh yeah, stories that are too silly to be believed. A talking donkey, a man living in a whale, magical hair, giants, unicorns, an invisible dragon, a man coming back to life and flying into the sky...
Well, I could go on and on. Every page makes me laugh.
5go

Don't forget going to a high mountian to see all the kingdoms of the earth. You can not see the south american kingoms from any mountain in Isreal because they are on the opposite side of the world.
Dagney

(((((sweet pea)))))
I'm not sure I am ""convinced" of anything anymore, but "God's Word," not so much.
When I left, I found comfort, peace and strength in the gospels, it was like I never read them before. Through time, the long time niggles about the Bible became unavoidable. I just never "got" the creation account. It makes no sense to me, and it is the foundation of the whole Bible and supposedly, the future of the human race.
Through the ensuing years on another board, several books were recommended that helped fill in the some gaps. One was "Who Wrote the Bible" which explained so much about the pieces that just didn't fit.
Here is the problem I have with "God's Word." If it is his message to us on why we are here and what's to become of us, IMHO I think he did a terrible job, the message isn't clear. The Bible conflicts itself throughout; for every pronouncement one way, there is acceptance or tolerance of the opposite. Very confusing. For a God of love, who loved the world "so much," there is too much death, destruction, suffering to prove that true. If it's part of his divine plan clear to many, the many are not in agreement of what the plan is.
With all that being said, I have the utmost respect for believers and non believers.
You have gone through a lot of changes in a short period of time. Be careful that your brain doesn't explode. LOL
Brother Apostate

Dawg,
You are putting words in my mouth, something that unbelievers use frequently as a tactic.
Here are some examples and their rebuttals:
It amazes me although, when I read where you must pray to God for spirit so you'll be lead to believe the bible's nonscense.
I did not say that you must pray to God to believe. I stated that you must pray in Faith for His Holy Spirit to fill you before you read His word, so that you will learn from it, have it’s meaning revealed, and remember it so that it can then be used for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight. In this way God’s word directs the steps of those who do as outlined above.
ANd what did the snake promise man? Knowlwdge, and what do men like you continue to tell believers, Don't have knowledge just have faith. Nah, I'll take the snake's word for it and believe that having knowlede is God like... for isn't it the snake that says "your eyes will be opened, and you'll be like God knowing good from bad"? THank you Mr.Snake for giving me the knowledge to be like God...
Not what I said. I never said that knowledge is unimportant. Knowledge is very important, just as Faith is very important. Of course having knowledge is God-like, after all, we are created in His image!
... and what are God's followers like? WHy, they're just like Adam and Eve, afraid of their nakedness, always ashamed of their sins and the like. ALways running in fear of God...
I’m not afraid of my nakedness, I cherish it, and so does every other true Christian I know! I don’t run in fear, I embrace God in His love, and so does every other true Christian I know! We’re not "ashamed of our sins" we are conscious of sin and do our best to avoid it!
This shame based religion that takes away man's ability to use their logic, it's not good for society, and look at the results of not being like God and knowing "good from bad". Look at what religion has done with the "just believe" theme.... nice! I'll hang with the snakes anyday.
True Christianity is not a "shame based" religion, as I answered above, and logic and reasoning ability are cherished as gifts from God, to be ever-developed during the course of our existence. However, knowledge, logic, reasoning ability are not the be all and end all, wisdom and Faith are just as important in our overall development as human creatures. True Christianity is great for society- we are loving, charitable, loving, merciful, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self controlled. True Christians are like God, these attributes just listed are His, and we by virtue of being made in His image strive to be like Him in practicing and displaying these fruits.
Overall, your problem, Dawg, as well as many like you, is that you can’t/don’t/won’t differentiate between false "christians" and True Christians, period.
I’ll tell you how to do so, so you can never say you did not know"
True Christians display and practice the fruit of God’s Holy Spirit:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." - Galatians 5:22-23
Yes, it’s that simple, Dawg.
If you see someone claiming to be Christian but not displaying those fruits, but rather, displaying these fruits:
" The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:19-21
There are plenty of folks who go to church on Sunday, but during the rest of the week outside of church they show they are not Christian by the above measures.
If someone claimed to be a pro golfer, but didn’t have a clue about driving and putting, would you take them on their word that they are what they claim to be?
Hopefully not. Nor should you lump all "christians" together, broad brushing those who show they are not Christian with those who show they are.
BA- Peace.
Brother Apostate

I'm not going to spend my life answering comments directed towards my posts on this thread, however, I’ll respond to those made thus far (after my post numbered 1549):
First up, let’s get 5go out of the way:
This statement from a man the makes Jehovah's Witnesses look like bible highly intellectual skeptical scholars. Also whose ad hoc attacks make anything the Watchtower says look like smart and to the point. I say if Jesus was alive to day assuming he ever existed would slap him accross the face while saying "You stumbler of my sheep get away from me you pharisee! Go back to your church or what ever you call those things now! I want faith not idiocy!".
What 5go imagines is what he states above. In reality, I have continually put up with comments that he has made that are consistently due to his :
1)- taking things I have said out of context,
2)- lack of overall reading comprehension, caused partially by:
3)- poor grammar
4)- poor spelling.
If you can not understand spelling, grammar, and context, you will for a certainty have issues with reading comprehension.
BA- Poor 5go, please, please, please quit embarrassing yourself by continuing to prove my comments above. Learn spelling, learn grammar, learn context. You will then be taken seriously.
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Pseudoxristos, nvrgnbk and Shawn10538,
Yes, the same can be said for any book. However, the one placing faith and doing study must be careful what they place their faith in, and what they study.
If one studies the Bible in the way I have detailed (prayer, study, repeat daily) they will see their understanding and faith grow. Sure you can do likewise with a book about growing tomatoes, but the key difference will be that God can't teach you from that book what he can teach you from the Bible.
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Awakened07,
Several groups study and believe the entire Bible as you do, but come to vastly different conclusions than your group does. They too believe they are right, and - believe it or not - they believe it just as strongly as you do.
Agreed.
An honest, open and searching person would have to spend half a lifetime diving into each of these group's teachings in order to be able to make an informed decision of which group to follow. And as any other religious group of any other religion is just as deeply convinced that they have the Truth from their scriptures, the same honest, open and searching individual would have to spend half a lifetime diving deep into their teachings, in order to make an informed decision. That adds up to a whole lot of lifetimes in the end.
That is why I believe it is important to start your own Bible study program as I outlined- putting faith in God, praying to Him for His Holy Spirit, and reading the Bible daily.
The difference between what you described and what I described are hiugely different, as follows:
I outlined a way to place Faith in God, and let Him direct your understanding.
You outlined a way to place Faith in men, and let them direct your understanding. (You might notice that all organized religion does likewise)
I am not the only one doing as I have outlined. Everyone I know who has done as I outlined has come to the same conclusion, and that has strengthened our faith immensely. Why? Because it is apparent that we are being taught the same thing by God’s Holy Spirit, even though we study as individuals and discuss our findings as groups! I will summarize what "we" believe:
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Start with the Law of Love, (" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "-Luke 10:27) then add to that those other things (all summed up in that law, but fully expounded on elsewhere) as follows:
Put faith in God, his Son, Jesus Christ, his Son's ransom sacrifice's power to redeem us, and his inspired word the Holy Bible - Hebrews 10:12, 26; 11:6; 11:1-40; John 3:16-21; Romans chapters 4, 5 & 6; Romans 10: 9-17; Acts 4:12; 10:43; Matthew 26:28; Mark 3:28-30; James 4:17; 5:15; 1 John 4:9-14;Luke 13:23,24; 1 Timothy 4:10.
Real faith compels us to works, service to God - James 2:26; Acts 26:20; Hebrews 10: 23-25.
Practice the fruitages of the Holy Spirit, doing our utmost to avoid sin -Galatians 5:19-25;1 Corinthians 6: 9,10; Matthew 12:31.
Prayer - Matthew 5:44, 6:9, 26:41; 1 Thessalonians 5:17; James 5:16; Romans 12:21; Phillipians 4:6; Colossians 4:2; 1 Peter 4:7.
If one starts out studying the NT with the express intent of examining each statement as to whether it is a Law/Rule that mustbe obeyed for salvation, versus a principle, suggestion, admonition, etc, versus chronology, prophesy, etc, one finds that the "core beliefs" are those necessary for each individuals salvation, while most of Scripture is for other purposes, and should be treated accordingly.
In the end, God will judge each of us as individuals, not as part of a "religion", "group", "organization", etc. Far too many hide behind the mask of their religion’s beliefs, letting them decide what is right and wrong, what is necessary for salvation, etc. It takes personal study, research, and the ensuing fruit of God’s Holy Spirit : "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control", along with the aforementioned Scriptural practices, to gain salvation.
What is necessary for salvation is what is ultimately important
, as chronology, prophecy, Mosaic Law, geneology, history, etc, etc, etc, have their place, but won’t result in our salvation or lack thereof.
That is why Jesus spoke these words: "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it. - Matthew 7:13,14
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Man's word because of all the hate, bloodlust, genital obsession, baby/senior citizen killing, ethnocentric, and judgemental attitudes found within.
These negative things you mention were not promulgated as necessities by God. Rather, these are inevitable symptoms of the state of fallen mankind. To this day, as then, and all centuries in between, we have seen hate, bloodlust, genital obsession, baby/senior citizen killing, ethnocentrism, and judgmental attitudes. God is not to blame for these, rather, Satan, Eve, and Adam are.
Thankfully, God has provided a means for us to be redeemed from our fallen state in the ransom sacrifice of His Son, Christ Jesus.
That is just what God did. Jesus did none of that.
God, and Jesus, do, and think the same, as Christ Himself taught. You clearly fail to realize that.
Now, if you want to talk about all of the things that God's followers did, just restate the above.
As stated above, these things are of human, not Godly, origin. That is why they continue to our day.
It's amazing that after Jesus came to earth, God took a back seat and all of the devine killing and mutilating stopped. God and his followers hurt others. Jesus and his followers helped others. Amazing how that worked, isn't it?
"Divine justice" may result in killing, yes. That is God’s right as judge. It is also His right to resurrect those who He judges to a much better, perfect place in the afterlife. Both God and Jesus "helped" and "hurt" others, depending on their heart condition. There’s no change other than the "New Covenant", which redeemed mankind from Adam’s sin, and which made clear something that had always been God’s intent, that is, a "Jew" is not one who has the circumcision of the flesh, but one who has the circumcision of the heart.
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Sweetpea,
how does Holy Spirit account for all the evidence that points to the gross failings as highlighted by RunningMan/marmot, etc? Surely one is no different from a JW sticking their head in the sand if one says that 'Faith' is the answer to everything.
I have read of such "gross failings" on the internet. They have been posted by many posters here as well. I have answered many of them. I hope to eventually answer all of them. They all come down to the same thing- the agenda of the writer.
I have seen loads of "loaded language", "strawmen", "begging the question", "stacking the deck" and other fallacious arguments used to take things out of the original context of the Bible and paint a false picture of God and His actions. If one actually studies the Bible, one sees that each supposed incident that "God bashers" write about is in reality, something that either fallen human nature is to blame for, is God’s righteous judgment against gross evil, or something else that can be explained without painting an ugly picture of God.
As for "faith being the answer to everything", I believe I have made clear that is not the case, as my post above to Dawg, in this thread, as well as others on JWD, makes clear.
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serotonin_wraith,
It says the sun came after the Earth. False.
It’s a matter of interpretation. One answer is that the "Lights" may have become visible after the Earth’s creation. Another answer is that current scientific belief is wrong. Either way, Biblically nor scientifically, no absolute proof.
It says man was made 6,000 years ago. False.
Again, at least two other possibilities: (1) A "creative day" is not a literal 24 hour day, and (2) Current scientific belief on Eatrh’s age is wrong. Either way, Biblically nor scientifically, no absolute proof.
It says witches are real. They are not.
How do you know? The truth is that no one knows for sure. Many things that were scoffed at in the past are now accepted as "fact". What will be revealed in the future? Who knows.
It says there was a worldwide flood. There was not.
This event may have covered the "known", inhabited earth, or God may have miraculously done whatever was necessary to ensure survival of submerged life forms. Either way, Biblically nor scientifically, no absolute proof.
It says bats are birds. They are not.
That’s a new one on me. Sounds like you’re buying fertilizer, methinks. That’s what happens when one only reads anti-Bible, anti-God, literature, I guess. Also, perhaps you have a clue how science primarily divides family, genus and species? Here’s a hint: modern day science eventually chose reproductive traits as primary. However, there was much thought put into other ways of classifying animals and plants. If they’d chosen transportation as primary, well, I suppose you can see how that affects your outlook. Given that modern science had not developed it’s classification system during Biblical times, again, I think you can see how your assertion is of no value.
It says demons inhabit human minds. No, it's mental illness.
How do you know? Are "demons" any illness or affliction? Are "demons" sinful spirits that cause fallen mankind to behave in wicked ways? The truth is that no one knows for sure. Many things that were scoffed at in the past are now accepted as "fact". What will be revealed in the future? Who knows.
It says very unscientific things such as stars falling to Earth. Think about that one. First, ONE star would wipe everything out on Earth before it even reached us, and will the stars be travelling faster than the speed of light to reach us? It says the moon will not give IT'S light. The moon doesn't give any light. It reflects the light of the sun. "Metaphor blah blah metaphor!" - Well even with a metaphor, you'd think it would be more accurate than that!
Wow. If you had lived years ago, you would have expressed what you saw with the unaided human eye, not telescopes! Is it metaphors of Satan being cast to the earth and being described as a falling star that bug you so much? Does a mirror give light when it reflects the sun? Yep. So does the moon. Case closed. Dude, really, you need better arguments than that. Puhleeeez!
What else? Oh yeah, stories that are too silly to be believed. A talking donkey, a man living in a whale, magical hair, giants, unicorns, an invisible dragon, a man coming back to life and flying into the sky...
As for the "unicorns’ it shows, again, your ignorance of the subject of what is contained in the Bible.
As for "the man living in a whale" we could argue that is entirely possible. Given the unlikelihood of it occurring again, however, if it did, and the man survived, who in our modern day would believe him? Hopefully if it happens again the guy will have an underwater video camera attached to "prove" it! Lol.
On the subject of "Giants" nothing claimed in the Bible on that subject is outside the bounds of measured reality.
The "invisible dragon" was a "vision", dude. Please try to keep reality and dreams separate, mmmK?
As for the rest, how do you know? The truth is that no one knows for sure. Many things that were scoffed at in the past are now accepted as "fact". What will be revealed in the future? Who knows. I have faith that all these things will be proven true beyond the pale of doubt.
Well, I could go on and on.
Yes, so could I. I rebutted your every assertion, and it was easy.
Every page makes me laugh.
I get a chuckle out of what you believe as well, lol!
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BA- Phew!
PS- That's enough for tonight!
OnTheWayOut

For me, it's Genesis and the Levitical laws.
Genesis is just not really possible.
Even if we were supposed to think that the Adam and Eve story was just a
story, that still leaves the geneology and the flood story.
The flood was simply impossible. I was fooling myself all these years. There
are millions of insect species that they could not have sustained, plus plants that
could not have survived without being on that ark. Fresh and brackish water
life that must have perished. Animals that couldn't get to Australia afterward.
I could go on and on about this one subject.
I might chalk up the Genesis stories as stories from God, but the geneology is
presented as fact and used again in the New Testament. This indicates the
writings of men.
The book of the laws was forgotten and lost, until it was "rediscovered."
(I don't feel like looking up the exact time and which scriptures state this.)
The people had forgotten the law and it was reintroduced. I have heard theories
about the Bible never being in existence as a book at all before that time.
I have read theories that the priests of Yahweh wrote that stuff after the Babylonian
captivity. The theories say that no Jews EVER EVER lived by that strict law code.
The theories made sense.
nvrgnbk

I find your musings to be potentially offensive to believers, OTWO.
So I'm begging that you remove them.
dawg

Ok, to Sweetpea, on the science of Adam, Eve, and the flood... just today I read where beavers, the north american kind, are destroying the forests in Chilie...in South America. That's becasue they're not native to that soil-UGA took them there years ago... did beavers just get off that boat (the ark) and swim only to north america? Did the 9 different species of rattlesnake and so on? Think of all the animals all over the world, especally places like Madagascar-isoilated places where only certain animals exist there and nowhere else in the world. Did they swim off the ark, leave no babies behind and only end up in madagascar? Nah...
On Adam and Eve, there are many reasons to not take that seruious, I'll give you one... I found a arrowhead last month down by the river, I took it to the actrheoogy dept here at UGA, they said it was 8,000 years old... said they've gotten proof from certain sites where the carbon dating had shwon fireside charcoals, the most accurate article in which to get carbon 14, dates these sites at 8,000 years old.
And the evidence piles up ad infinum... over and over we hear things like the ones above.

The Bible - God's Word or Man's? - What Convinces You?

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