Hillary_step sums it up for me.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Those that visit here that are too fragile to cope with some of the more mature/heated debates/feedback will leave and feel that the organisation got it right with their view of those that leave. When they return and are not so fragile they will take from the board what they need and may give something back in return.
There is freedom of thought here, there is support and understanding and I for one appreciate that enormously coming from a place where we didn't have that freedom.
And sometimes, you can't have the good without the bad, as an old JW friend once said to me, but I'd rather have the bad of JWD any day than the bad of the Borg.
What has Changed the most? This board or your perspective?
by AK - Jeff 39 Replies latest jw friends
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sweet pea
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bem
Me and how I percieve things/words, my values are still moral and the people and parts of me that I hold dear to me are still just as valuable to me as ever, But I have more tolerance and I have grown from meeeting to and chatting with people that are genuine so I have been fortunate.
Having said that . I do recognize that some do not move on. Some are happy where they are and no amount of badgering or pushing can change a person, Bullies are just that way to control people so it's up to us to not let anyone do that.
As with me I have had a whole lot of AH-HA moments. An epipheny if you will, sometimes of dramatic preportions.
As has already been stated, I notice the flow and eb of posters changing. One thing I admire is that the board has been able to stay with it's original plan. But then new election are soon to be done here on the USA so if you weren't here last prsidential election stick around for a whole new take on rudeness and bad mouthing each other. <> had to ad that since I survived last pres, election but lots of posters left the board during that rucuss or soon after.
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AK - Jeff
But then new election are soon to be done here on the USA so if you weren't here last prsidential election stick around for a whole new take on rudeness and bad mouthing each other. <> had to ad that since I survived last pres, election but lots of posters left the board during that rucuss or soon after.
What is the old saying? Never discuss politics or religion. Well, you are right I think - it is even worse when one is discussing politics in a forum that is made up of mostly persons who have been dealt a blow by religious thought and control.
Best advise - get your emotions off your sleeve now - I might choose the coming season to frequent JWD a little less often due to the very nature of your comments. Good warning.
Jeff
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onacruse
One discussion I will never forget along these lines is http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/15/55016/1.ashx
It literally took my breath away, because I was being forced to face issues which I didn't want to face. And I don't pretend to have fully assimilated all the lessons there to which I was exposed.
But, as it stands today, my feeling is that tolerance can be overdone, as can intolerance. Striking an equilibrium between these two positions has been a struggle for humanity ever since Adam and Eve ("eat the fruit," "no, don't eat the fruit.")
I doubt that a universally satisfactory balance will ever be found, and we will (whether the environment be a discussion board or a coffee house or a Mensa group or a church or a statehouse) continue to struggle, one with another, because that is the nature of our existence.
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jaguarbass
We seem to go thru 'phases' here of 'I'm leaving because the board is changing' threads. There is certainly a microcosm of social-evolution involved with any structured community, and that evolution may create in certain people a need to 'move on' [though often they are back rather soon after].
My assumption is though - in looking at the past threads and social environment here - that not much has really changed. There seems to be a flux of energetic change at times. Sometimes the board seems obsessed with a particular doctrinal matter. Other times it becomes more social in nature and almost seems to brush off certain doctrinal topics as 'old hat'. The focus seems to shift all over the XJW continuum of thought over time.
It seems to me that when we 'tire' of the board, that it is likely more that we have grown, or perhaps that we have refused to grow in some cases.
So what do you think? Is the board too inflexible nowadays? Is it too social? Not enough meaty doctrinal discussions? And the bigger question then is begged:
What can you do to make this a better place to be for those that are here? Or is social evolution too strong to change the nature of the beast here?
Opinions please.
Jeff
The beauty of this place is we dont have to be here. Our visiting is based on our free will. It's like a tv or radio with a dial, we can turn it off or ignore what we dont care for.
My perspective has changed since I started comming here. I've drifted furhter from the bible and the god of the bible more towards atheism, I have a different understanding and tolerance of evolution. Probablly largely thru visiting here.
But others maybe have gotten closer to the bible and its god. I guess we see what we want to see. And sometimes we are not totally aware of what we want to see.
The board is made up of different people all the time. And these people are venting and stating their oppions.
If someone wants a meaty doctrinal discussion, they should either start one or find one.
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White Dove
The board changes as we change. The first posts of this board long time ago were made up of those on the way out. Now we are all mostly out.
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hillary_step
Craig,
One discussion I will never forget along these lines is http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/15/55016/1.ashx
lol...Yes, I remember that discussion well. It should have been titled, "Do Not Argue With An Agenda" and it was so obviously a planned attack on AlanF's posting style by those whose noses he had bloodied in the past.
Apart from that, it did make some very important points regarding this whole issue, and I have to say that though I am not immune to change, I am even more entrenched in the views that I outlined. As I noted in my opening post, "This is *just* a discussion Board". It is not the United Nations, the European Court of Civil Rights, nor a substitute for a psychiatrists couch. As soon as that notion becomes dislodged in our minds, problems can ensue.
Another thing I have noted on this Board, and I say this knowing it is a generalization, and that is that I have found European posters much less likely to be offended by vigorous and strong debate than their Transatlantic counterparts. I say this from a few years of reading and participating on this Board. Why that is so is a mystery to me.
HS
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onacruse
hs:
it was so obviously a planned attack on AlanF's posting style by those whose noses he had bloodied in the past.
Well, I don't recall that thread in that particular perspective, although at that time, and since, Alan and I had several very spirited discussions off-board along those lines (re: his posting style). We still respectfully agree to disagree in certain respects...though I've found myself gravitating somewhat toward his way of thinking, especially insofar as how to best respond to "certain" posters.
There are so many dimensions to this, I won't even attempt to try to address them comprehensively. But, as just one case-in-point:
A JW comes on board and makes strong assertions right out of the gate, (very probably) expecting to deliver a knock-out blow to doubters and apostates. Four possibilities:
1) The first responses are "You are an idiot and a fool." This will, of course, confirm his/her suspicions about the negative attitude of apostates, and the interaction will (usually) quickly terminate.
2) The first responses are "Hello, and have you considered this or that?"
3) As a result of scenario 2), the JW demonstrates a willingness to intelligently consider the opposing arguments, and the interaction becomes truly a discussion.
4) As a result of scenarion 2), the JW demonstrates an unwillingness to consider opposing arguments, using the WTS as his/her sole authority (not an unlikely possibility), and dismissively ignores the valid and logical points being made by other posters. Eventually, it reaches the point that one feels like one is talking to a fence post (otherwise known as idiot, fool, moron, or dipf**k). In this situation, I can no longer say that I disagree with such a categorization.
Just a couple of thoughts, fwiw.
edit to add: The reason this particular example struck me is that I can speak with some measure of personal experience along these lines. Although I'd been df'd for some years before I first posted on JWD, and even though I knew that I would never again be a JW, I was still permeated with so much of the conditioning and perspective of my upbringing that I didn't even see it in myself. Option 1) above would have totally put me off (as it did when I first visited H2O), and my first post here could well have been my last. Fortunately, I ended up responding as and being "treated" (both on- and off-board), along the lines 2) and 3).
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hillary_step
Onacruse,
I did not have yourself in mind when I noted an "agenda" in that debate.
Well Craig, I am with you that gentleness is the ideal in dealing with new board members. My point is that though it may be the ideal it will *never* become a reality so it is hardly worth debating. Internet discussion Boards will always be filled with numerous different "types", some gentle, some not so gentle, some quite insane. People have to either learn to live with this reality or log off.
As for those who have posted here for a while, the whole issue may be different.
An example. Every so often "evolution" and "creation" debates raise their heads. Some creationists come onto those threads *repeatedly* and proudly uttering the same unscientific notions, asserting their viewpoint strongly without ever attempting to even read the information offered in rebuttal. In essence they are stating, "I have the right answer and I could not care an iota for any arguments against my views, I will never see anything differently". They think nothing of demeaning the views of others, either by word or by deliberately choosing ignorance in favor of honesty, but bleat like babies when they are called out.
Gentleness is not deserved by such repeat offenders. A kick up the arse is what they need, and is often what shakes their arrogance.
HS
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Hortensia
there's nothing wrong with the board. If you don't like one conversation, move around the room to another one. Ignore the threads started by posters who annoy or irritate you. I don't read the doctrinal ones, for instance, because to me it's all garbage. (Did you see how nicely I avoided saying the word I usually say which apparently offends some people, although I am no longer a JW so I'm not responsible for "stumbling" you.)