What did Jesus mean by "this generation"

by Fisherman 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Fisherman

  What did Jesus mean by "thisgeneration" ?

  34

  Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

  In all 4 Gospels, every time that Jesus said "THIS GENERATION" he was refering to HIS contemporaries, the people that lived in his time. Logically and consistently with the other instances where Jesus used the term 'this generation"in other verses, Jesus apparantly must have meant the same when he said "this generation" in Mathew 24:34.

  COMPARE

  With whom shall I compare this generation? It is like young children sitting in the marketplaces

  A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah... rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it;

  will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol´o·mon

  That is how it will be also with this wicked generation

  O faithless and twisted generation

  YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.

  Again, the ONLY logical conclusion based on the context in which Jesus always used generation is that Jesus meant HIS generation in Math 24:34.

  However, IF all aspects of this prophecy have double fulfilments, then consistently, the this generation part of the prophecy must also have double fulfilment also having similar application and meaning.

  What is the meaning of "this generation" as it applies to the double fulfilment?
• 

  wha happened?

  Dare I say it applies to modern day JW's? The parallels are too similar.
• 

  Leolaia

  The early Christians expected the parousia in the first century. The NT texts generally have a short-range apocalyptic expectations (cf. Matthew 10:23, 16:27-28, 24:34, Mark 9:1, 13:30, 14:62, Romans 13:11-12, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, James 5:8, 1 Peter 4:7, Revelation 1:7, 17:10, Revelation 22:10, 12, 20), and there is hardly any reason from the text itself to expect a "double fulfillment". Generally, second fulfillments are read into the text on an ad hoc eisegetical basis, usually in order to make an old eschatological text have current relevance, or to salvage it from non-fulfillment. In my opinion, this distorts the (original) meaning of the text and subordinates it to what the reader wants it to mean. The Society's Daniel book is a great example of the kind of stipulative, arbitrary identifications that are made when exegesis is abandoned for "greater fulfillments", but even many timeworn interpretations (such as the identification of the Papacy with the "Babylon the Great" of Revelation) suffer from the same flaw.

  When a claim is made that " 'this generation' refers to the anointed alive in the early 21st century" or the " 'desolation of abomination' refers to the United Nations", examine the text itself to see whether it is actually motivated by the text, let alone being permitted by the text.
• 

  garybuss

  The Watch Tower Society owns the Jehovah's Witness religion, not the other way around as they teach.
  
  The Witness theology I was raised with was only based on the claims made by the "Society", such as, "It happened this way because we say it happened this way", or, It's this way because we say it's this way". Claims made aren't supported by reality or facts, the're defended by threat of sanctions.
  
  If I want to understand the "Society" it's pretty easy by looking at just the few tactics they use. The key rules are:
  
  A. Treat us as if we are never wrong.
  B. If we are ever wrong see rule "A".
  
  Now that they have established the ground rules . . . policy, laws, and doctrine are easy since the Society can't be held accountable or questioned.
  
  Opinions aren't presented as opinions, they're presented as fact and policy.
  
  1). The Society looks at select Bible texts as having 2 or more applications. They call these the "types" and the "anti-types", or the typical and the atypical. A perfect example of this are the generation speculations.
  
  2). Parables are shopped and some are ignored, some are left as parables, and some are turned into prophecy. The best example of this is the parable of the 3 slaves. Write this one out and flow chart it. Tell me what's missing.
  
  3). The Society takes a legal approach to it's Jehovah's Witness religion and the political government they run closely resembles the Fascist model. The Society itself looks more like an IBM business model than a religion.
  
  4). Enforcement of policy is not done by the Society but is done by willing friends and relatives using social, economic, and emotional blackmail. Threats are carried out by cooperative friends and relatives.
  
  5). The only way I've seen the Society itself takes visible action against a non employee member is secular action through it's legal department.
  
  In my personal experience with the Witnesses:
  a). teachings are nothing more than an excuse to print product and have meetings.
  b). if my friends are all Witnesses, I don't have any friends.
  c). if my relatives are Witnesses I can't trust them.
  
  
  
• 

  JCanon

  I agree that in the absence of the context of what was supposed to occur during "this generation" that it might have been presumed to be those of Jesus' generation. But two issues exist here:

  1) "This generation" was to experience all the signs given, including the prophesied desolating of "Judea" a one-time event that was clearly prophesied to occur during the "end times." So, certainly no indication there that would occur during the immediate common generation of Jesus' time, say within the next 40-80 years.

  2) The second thing is, whether if Jesus was making a crytic reference in relation to his earlier statement in Matthew where he says:

  MATTHEW 16:28 " 28 Truly I say to YOU that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

  The early Christians fell into two classes; those who would end up dying and needing a resurrection before the Lord's day and those who would actually "survive" down to the Lord's day over a 1900-year period. So TECHNICALLY some of those of Jesus' generation could say that they would not pass away until these things came. It's almost the same statement, since part of the signs included in "this generation" was the second coming.

  John and Paul were two we know of who did not die throughout the ages before Christ arrived. At 1 Thess 4:15 we can clearly see Paul placing himself in the "surviving" group, those who would be not die until Christ came, but clearly enough in the past that all those not in this "living-surviving" group would be expected to have died out completely.

  Note how Paul is answering a doctrinal issue with regard to the two distinct groups, which is if those who "survive" down to the Lord's day would receive their prize before those needing to be resurrected:

  15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, thatwe the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

  This merely confirms that the first resurrection will occur first back into the flesh so that everyone anointed in Christ at the time of the second coming will all be in the flesh together for a period of time before they ALL, together get their heavenly bodies. Those no group will precede the other to their reward.

  Just as a background note, per the Bible 1/10th of those of the Bride Class must be natural Jews and must comprise 12,000 from each tribe. The entire number 1,440,000. (See Isa 6:13)

  13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

  This means that 144K are natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe and the other 90% are grafted in gentiles to the symbolic king-priest olive tree.

  But there's a huge logistical problem here, obviously. How can you guarantee and fulfill that 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes will make up the root in later times over 1900 years later? Especially after the destruction of Jerusalem in 73 BCE would keeping up the genealogies be difficult. One solution would be to allow some who could prove their lineage during the time of Jesus be selected to live down through the ages for 1900 years like Paul and John and then at some point, depending upon how many were selected, marry into the modern population so that in say several generations each person could have up to a million descendants to choose from for the 12,000 required from each tribe. That would fulfill the technical letter of the prophesy and promise.

  But having noted that, that means it really doesn't matter if Jesus meant some who were alive during his day would not die before the second coming, not to occur until 2520 years after thef all of Jerusalem.

  So you can HAVE IT EITEHR WAY. "This generation" could be an 80-year generation reference (Ps. 90:10) during which all these signs would occur beginning with the very first sign, which was a world war (i.e. kingdom vs kingdom, nations vs nation); OR it could be another reference that some of Jesus' generation would not die at all until he arrived, even though he was not scheduled to arrive for over 1900 years.

  So either way it works with a modern date for the second coming. Biblically speaking.

  JCanon
• 

  JosephMalik

  In all 4 Gospels, every time that Jesus said "THIS GENERATION" he was referring to HIS contemporaries, the people that lived in his time.

  Fisherman,

  Most of the time perhaps but not every time. The generation in question was part of a prophecy found in Daniel chapter 12. It was a generation that occurred during the Gospel age now being discussed in detail, the end of it in fact when the Gentile times finally end. It simply singled this time out for discussion in much the same way that Daniel singled it out for his readers. If you can picture it in your mind then you can see this generation as the Gospels described it and the way Daniel looked into it and described its historical place. Therefore this generation and the resurrection of the human race including Daniel himself are all part of the same event. They cannot be separated from each other or moved to different times like many do with 70CE. The Jerusalem of this generation was not the literal city before them but it was the holy place Daniel described. The Jerusalem before them therefore was Jesus way of depicting the Christianity and holy place Daniel described found at the end of this Gospel age which this generation would now find surrounded by encamped armies.

  Joseph
• 

  Fisherman

  The end did not come in the first century though.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  1) "This generation" was to experience all the signs given, including the prophesied desolating of "Judea" a one-time event that was clearly prophesied to occur during the "end times."

  We can be so influenced by our training as JW's or from previous religious history.
  I challenge that statement by JCanon. If it was so clearly prophesied to occur during the end times,
  how did it slip past so many centuries and generations? This is so like the WTS. State something
  as matter-of-fact, expecting that others must agree or look stupid. Well, we don't mind fighting our
  way out of looking stupid.

  If experts are right, the Gospels were written well later than claimed. The stories were invented as a
  combination of beliefs from various Pagans. They meant that the generation that was standing at the
  moment was the one that saw "the destruction of Jerusalem." Nothing more. If the experts are not
  right, the basic understanding was still prophetic of "the destruction of Jerusalem" and nothing more.
  You cannot throw this out there without backing it up, so that's what the thread is about. Tell us how
  it was "clearly prophesied to occur during the 'end times.'"
• 

  JCanon

  The end did not come in the first century though.

  No, and few people understand what "end of the system of things" the Jews specifically had in mind, either. The "END" they had in mind was simply the "END of the gentile times" and "END of the appointed times of the nations." Thus the "END" actually occurred on November 30, 1947 when the Partition Agreement from the UN went into effect. Of note, by then, the "good news" preached by a special modern sect would have to have become an international organization by then. And it was. Even though just beginning in the mid 1800's, with the first SIS being published in 1886, the International Bible Students who adopted the name "Jehovah's witnesses" were an international sect by November 30, 1947. So Bible prophecy was fulfilled. The "good news" had been preached world wide "before the end" came. JCanon
• 

  Fisherman

  Intesteresting view Josephmalik but a genration that spans thouands of years is not consistent with the way the Bible uses the word generation. It seems to me that a generation means people living at a particular point in time, for example the generation of Jesus age, but I woud like to hear more support on your view.