What did Jesus mean by "this generation"

by Fisherman 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Dawg, Jesus could not be wrong because he was the messiah therefore his prophecy must realize. Since ALL PARTS of it did not come to pass in his generation, certainly those part must come true later on. But some parts did come true. (When you see Jerurasalm.. encamped..her desolation has drawn near (other verses use the term shikutz instead of roman armies)).

    I submit that the comming of the Messiah has a double fulflment.

    AS a result of how some parts came true and others did not come true yet, a problem in understanding what the prophecy means later on arises. Would the entire prophecy have a parallel fulfilment or will only parts of the prophecy will be later fulfilled. Take note that the prophecy speaks of judgement day so that has not come to pass and that part MUST realize later on.

    Jesus words MUST come true because he said that heaven and earth will pass away but not his words

    The wts has been blamed for spiritualzing prophecies but it was Jesus who started this. Jesus called John the B Elijah. JTB was not Elijah but Jesus said he was. Before Jesus, traditional jews had a literal way of looking at things. Also read Paul's Epistles.

    The wts taught that the 1914 generation would not pass away and that the 1914 generation is the prophetic one that Jesus mentioned and now in order to keep 1914 they say that the generation means the annointed that will not pass away until the prophecy is fulfilled. With this understaing "this geneartin" has lasted thousands of years now since Jesus apostles till now and should last thousands of yearsr to the future withh all of the new annointed comming in and more to follow until the end comes. In other words, according to the wts, 1914 fulfills bible prophecy no matter what, and the end will come not restricted by the meaning of generation.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Leolia, I did not mean A+B=C. That is your personal conclusion as to what I meant. I was not trying to show that double fufilment must follow because of my previous 2 statements.

    I meant that it seems to me that what you said in your previous commentary is similar to what the wts teaches about double fulfilment.

    The statemnt about CERTAINLY is my personal conviction.

    It is a matter of historical fact that some parts of the prophecy did come true, for example, the disgusting thing that causes desolation, but other parts of the prophecy, Jesus return and Judgement Day did not. But Jessus said: " When you see all of these thing..."

    What did Jessu mean by "you" and what did Jessus mean by "all". The Apsstles did not see all of the sign come to pass.

    Interestingly, Jesus likened his prophecy to a fig tree saying: ".. when you see all .." meaning all parts of the prophecy must be seen within the same time period.

    The Apostles did not see all of the prophecy come to pass in their time, so when Jessu says "you" and all" the prophecy appears to ahve another meaning other than how it applied to Jesus age.

  • reneeisorym
    reneeisorym

    This generation was the generation of the people Jesus was talking to. The things Jesus said would happen happened in A.D. 70 with the Jewish wars and the destruction of the Temple.

    I suggest reading:

    The great tribulation: past or present? written by a guy named Ice and a guy named Gentry. Great book from two persepectives.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Hi Fisherman.....Thank you for the clarification, and if I were to give my own clarification, I would emphasize again that what I wrote bears no resemblance with a "double fulfillment" interpretation like the one offered by the WTS. The references to Judgment Day and the coming of the Son of Man in power in the synoptic apocalypse do not within the context of the passage entail or imply a double fulfillment. The notion that there should be a twofold fulfillment is not based on the data contained within the passage; it is a hermaneutic principle motivated by harmonistic concerns external to the text itself.

    Now eisegesis has a time-honored role in Judaism (midrash) and Christianity and thus is the very "stuff" of theology and eschatology, so I do not want to be misunderstood as denying your or anyone's right to read the text in a way that makes sense to you. That indeed is how texts continue to live and thrive in a modern context wholly different from the one in which they were composed. My concern is only that of understanding what the text originally meant, what the author's intent was, how the first readers of the text would have understood it. That is exegesis, and one of the most basic rules of exegesis is to be lead primarily by the text itself, its rhetorical and narrative construction, the word choice, what motifs and themes are expressed, and how they interpret or appropriate earlier sources. If you pursue a strictly exegetical reading of the Olivet discourse (and related apocalyptic texts in the synoptic gospels), and forget about the hindsight of history, forget about what you may want the text to say, and strictly follow what is said therein and pay attention to how it is said, there is no way a concept of a double fulfillment would naturally fall out of the text. Neither would one conclude that the text puts the epiphany of the Son of Man and the final Judgment at a time far removed from "this generation"; in fact, the exact opposite is what the reader would conclude. That is why I suggested a commentary like Davies & Allison would be a good choice because you would be able to see how this exegetical process works and why a "double fulfillment" interpretation is infelicitous with the text.

    Jesus words MUST come true

    That is the raison d'etre for the "double fulfillment" interpretation, the reason why it is read into the text at all. Such a stipulation if accepted would necessarily take precedence over a straightforward reading of the text that is not biased by the hindsight of history. If the text in fact presents a scenario that conflicts with history, history must override that scenario. BTW, this concern even crops up in liberal "Jesus Seminar" scholarship that, at least in the case of JD Crossan, constructs the "historical Jesus" as strictly non-apocalyptic and limited only to Cynic-like sapiential teaching. Both liberals and conservatives seem to shirk at the implications of an apocalyptic Jesus, while others find theological value in it as evidence of a truly human and non-docetic Jesus.

    But Jessus said: " When you see all of these thing..." What did Jessu mean by "you" and what did Jessus mean by "all". The Apsstles did not see all of the sign come to pass.

    Here's a good example. An exegete would examine the anaphoric and deictic relations in the text, seeing what is the logical antecedent of what, and how one thing is implied by another. Taking the text on its own terms, the exegete would find no reason for a sudden change in reference in blepein "to see, look" (v. 2, 5, 9, 23, 33 of Mark 13), which is used throughout the passage with consistent second-person reference. And regarding the tauta panta "all these things" of Mark 13:30, the logical antecedent of this is the tauta panta of v. 4, and when the two verses are compared it is clear that the question of when (hotan) one should expect tauta panta to be finished (sunteleisthai) is answered right there in v. 30: Q. When will tauta panta be completed? A. Tauta panta will fully happen before "this generation" passes away. Of course, this is just one small piece of the exegesis, one needs to take into account all the other data in the text which point to the same thing (e.g. the antecedent in v. 1-2 of the tauta panta of v. 4, en ekeinais tais hémerais in v. 24, the parallels of v. 26 in 8:38-9:1 and 14:62, etc.).

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    But some parts did come true. (When you see Jerusalem.. encamped..her desolation has drawn near (other verses use the term shikutz instead of roman armies)).

    Fisherman,

    This part did not come true in the first century as you say here. Other texts handled this destruction, not this prophecy. Where Luke used the city of Jerusalem in this prophecy, Matthew and Mark did not. They used Daniel instead to show that this use of Jerusalem simply meant holy place not the city itself. This way Jews would not be panicked to run and get killed somewhere else like Masada. So the fulfillment of this part of the prophecy along with this generation is still future. They knew what Jesus meant by saying Jerusalem in this prophecy where He was actually commenting on the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy so they supplied this meaning for the city in the text. Luke did not interpret as they did but provide the exact wording that Jesus used. That Matthew and Mark did not always quote Jesus exact words is a fact. How they knew this distinction is not revealed but it could easily have been brought out in a later conversation to which Luke was not privileged. But the fact that they did this and recorded it this way is now in plain sight. Put the texts side by side. The wording may not match but the generation being discussed does. It is the generation prophetically identified as this generation that will witness the end.

    Joseph

  • Liberty
    Liberty

    Dawg hit the nail on the head. There is NO evidence what so ever that any Gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem. Most of the evidence points to them being written well after. Hence, no fulfilled prophecy since the prediction was written after the event. If I wrote a prophecy in 1990 about the start of WWII happening in 1939 there is NO super human prescience involved. If you can't prove that I predicted it prior to the event then it is NOT prophecy.

    NONE of the other things Christ supposedly predicted ever came true either. It has been 2000 years people...Jesus is not coming back! IT ISN'T REAL! Zeus, Oden, Allah are ALL figments of the imagination just like Jesus and Jehovah. That is why we have been waiting 2000 years because NOTHING is going to happen. All the conjectures and mental gymnastics used to make the Bible make sense is a waste of time. If there was a God and He had an important message for humanity wouldn't He just simply tell us and do so in a clear and timely mannor without waiting thousands of years with only a riddle book for a clue???

    Just the fact that EVERY End Times interpretor has gotten it wrong should tell you something.

  • golf2
    golf2

    My view is the same renee. That 'wicked' generation of apostate Israelites, AD 70.


    Golf

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    There is NO evidence what so ever that any Gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem. Most of the evidence points to them being written well after. Hence, no fulfilled prophecy since the prediction was written after the event.

    OTOH the gospels utilized earlier sources and the Olivet discourse (minus the narrative frame of v. 1-2 of Mark 13) may have a source that is pre-AD 70 (in fact, the close parallels found in 4 Ezra strongly suggest an earlier source for both); the redaction elements in Matthew and Luke suggesting an acquaintance with the events of AD 70 are modifications of the older Markan text which itself does not require a date after that year. I used to think that the Markan apocalypse necessarily reflected the situation after the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e. as a vaticinium ex eventu) but I realize now that the text, as a midrash of Daniel and utilizing motifs found elsewhere in the literature of the time (see [1] and [2] for instance), presents an apocalyptic scenario that could just as easily predate any hindsight gained from AD 70. A date closer to the events of AD 39-41, in fact, may better reflect how things are related in the original source of the Markan Olivet discourse (cf. N. H. Taylor in JSNT, 1996), although this certainly is not the only possibility.

  • Liberty
    Liberty

    I appreciate your response Leolaia. I think I understand your point that some scholars speculate that there are earlier sources from which later Gospels were compiled. I am not a Bible scholar but I stand by my statement. There are no extant Gospel texts known which can be dated before 70 A.D. nor are there any other documents known which predict the destruction of Jerusalim dated before 70 A.D.. Certainly I can accept that there may be some yet to be discovered, but until they are revealed and properly dated I will remain skeptical of the prophecy. If I am wrong please let me know.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    He was predicting the Who song.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=i0XknwXqLDo

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