SPIRITS OF DEAD LEADERS COMMUNICATE WITH WT.

by badboy 20 Replies latest jw friends

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  badboy

  I WONDER WHAT MESSAGES THEY PASS ON.
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  Bonnie_Clyde

  Yes - I remember a WT just recently that inferred this. Do you suppose Fred Franz realized he made a mistake about 1935 being the last year of the calling of the anointed and inspired the GB to change this view in May 2007?
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  AlphaOmega

  Just for reference, this is from the Jan 1st 2008 Watchtower - "The First Resurrection Now Under Way ?"

  10 Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at Revelation 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number." The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory.* ( Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4 ) John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.
  
  11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God's anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?
  
  
  * For information on how we know that the 24 elders represent anointed Christians in their heavenly position, see Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 77, published by Jehovah's Witnesses.

  The real reason why this is important, is nothing to do with 1935 - it has to do with the demotion of the anointed to a group with "no special insight" and the promotion (or reaffirmation) of the GB to having inside info from the dead !
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  AlphaOmega
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  badboy

  WHO ARE THE 24 ELDERS?
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  carla

  Isn't trying to communicate with dead people condemned in the bible?!
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  drew sagan

  I've known of that quote for some time, but have never realized how completely absurd the entire paragraph was (or chapter for that matter). I love it when after reading this kind of nonsense JWs will say "what else could it mean?"
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  proplog2

  I hope this thread doesn't sink into oblivion too soon. In my opinion it explains how insidious self-delusion can be.
  
  The article is really schizoid. On the one hand there are sweeping generalizations and then on the other hand they use a lot of saving clauses that give them some wiggle room.
  
  Wiggle Phrases:
  
  "It may be helpful to consider what might be viewed as a Bible parallel....."
  
  "Could it, then be reasoned ..."
  
  "That is an interesting POSSIBILITY..."
  
  "Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible..."But what are all these admissions to speculative reasoning about?
  
  They are about this sweeping generalization found at the end of paragraph 10
  
  " John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision (here is the generalization) John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward."There is no reason to invent a John class - except that's what Watchtower theologians are always doing - inventing classes.
  
  You have to wonder which of the wacky 24 elders gave the John class the misinformation that led them to purchase Beth Sarim on behalf of those men of old who were shortly going to be resurrected.
  
  If they set themselves up as "mediums" for channeling communication from departed brothers then they ought to get everything 100% right. Otherwise, they are not a reliable source - not any different from all of the other "spirit-mediums".
  
  In paragraph 13 we go back to speculative expressions. The question for that paragraph is "In what way does Thessalonians 4:15-17 suggest that the first resurrection began early in Christ's Presence?
  
  Actually 1 Thessalonians doesn't suggest anything of the sort. The Watchtower suggests it parenthetically by saying:
  
  "We the living who survive to the presence of the Lord (not, to the end of his presence) "The Bible doesn't break Christ's presence into two parts or any parts. The Watchtower breaks it up because of their need to justify an invisible presence since Jesus' real presence didn't materialize in 1914.
  
  Can you see this glaring example of circular reasoning? They presume a long presence (now almost 96 years) and then conclude since the scripture doesn't specifically say "at the end of the presence" it must mean their presumptive beginning of his presence.
  
  Here is another presumption: "Therefore anointed Christians who died before Christ's presence were raised to heavenly life AHEAD of those who were still alive during Christ's presence."
  
  The rapture takes place NOT in heaven but in the vicinity of the earth. The Lord descends (to where?) to earth or in the heavens near the earth. At that time those who were dead in union with Christ experience their death and resurrection as a "twinkling of an eye" as do those who are alive when Christ comes. They meet the lord in the "air" implying the expanse near the earth and not the dwelling place for spirits . The point is that they all go with Christ at the same time when Christ comes.
  
  This agrees with the post tribulation events described in Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation....sign of the Son of man... coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory 24:31 "And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound and they will gather his chosen ones together from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."
  
  Is the trumpet sounding after the great tribulation NOT the same as the trumpet sounding at 1Thess 4:15-17? They both involve the resurrection of the holy ones. The resurrecton of ALL the holy ones takes place at the same time. This is not a gradual process that begins before the Great Tribulation. It happens AFTER the tribulation.

  This idea of the full number of holy ones being raised at once can be found at Revelation 6:11 "And a white robe was given to each of them and they were told to rest a little while longer, UNTIL the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been."
  
  The Watchtower ought to look long and hard at the following scripture:
  
  2Tim 2:18 "These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some."
  
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  AlphaOmega

  WHO ARE THE 24 ELDERS?

  If memory serves me correctly... and it generally doesn't after a couple of glasses of whisky, I think that the 24 Elders are representative of the 144,000 "anointed" class. Can anyone confirm or correct me ?
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  proplog2

  Alpha & Omega:
  
  The Watchtower seems to believe that the 24 elders must be the 144,000. This is because they have crowns on their heads. The Watchtower presumes that the 144,000 are the only rulers in heaven besides God and Christ.
  But these 24 elders/rulers are performing functions that seem to distinguish them from the holy ones.
  
  For instance they are described as having bowls that contain the prayers of the holy ones. It seems as if they have some kind of administrative function and the prayers were batched out to the various members of some executive body represented by the 24 elders.
  
  There is no explicit statement identifying the 24 elders as the 144,000.