John The Baptist. More than a Prophet?

by Steve J 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    I'm not sure if its my insomnia, a stinking cold, or the fact that the evidence just isn't there, but I still can't see how you can suggest John the Baptist and Jesus did anything but uphold the law.

    Steve J,

    It is one thing to uphold the Law because it was the only vehicle for salvation at the time and another thing to work towards putting an end to it because it would no longer serve this purpose in a very short time as shown. How can you say that they did not do anything but uphold the law when what they were doing was putting an end to it? Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Some would call this sedition.

    You used this example:in the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus teaches, by firstly reminding the people of the law on adultery and then saying; "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart." (Matt 5:27,28)

    Where in the Law is that found? And Jesus said: Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And again: Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. Since Jesus was providing commandments of His own that differed from the Law and its commandments as taught at the last supper by drinking the wine which represented His blood for example how is it that this Jesus was supporting the Law and its continuation? And how about this commandment of Jesus: 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. Where is this found in the Law? So many texts and I have not even started to cover them.

    You said: You also mentioned the Lords Supper and the new covenant found at Luke 22, but I can't even see how this abolished the law. All it did was establish a promise that if Jesus' disciples remained faithful they would have a share in the atonement of his redeeming death.

    No, it did much more than that: What it would really do is: 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The Law did not do this did it? If so where? Jesus was speaking to those keeping the Law which did not provide this benefit to them. The scriptures teach that everyone resurrected will not have eternal life or Justification as it come to be known. But it was not time for this Law to end yet so He continued to keep it as you have shown yet this is not proof that it would not end. It simply showed that the time for its end was still future.

    You said: But in a previous post (360 re: Matt 5:17-20) I mentioned that I'd come to the conclusion that the apostasy in the early church was down to Paul. . . I base my conclusions, (although they're not set in stone and I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, if I see the proof, I hasten to add) but I base them on the fact that I can't find anything other than in Paul's writings which suggests Jesus intended to do away with the law.

    So many texts like Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses - apart of Paul’s writings so where do I start? Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. A better hope brought in? Not a continuation of this Law? Any other form of worship deemed better would have violated this Law making the worshipers apostate and libel to be stoned. Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Wow! The Law broken big time. Get out the stones. And it goes on and on like this but not so if your mind is closed. It is not necessary to cover every verse and cross every tee. You have your views and I have stated mine. It is up to the readers now to study the matter on their own and make up their own minds.

    Joseph

  • Steve J
    Steve J

    Hi Joseph,

    Sorry its taken so long to reply and thanks again for the thought provoking debate.

    Re: Matt 3:7. I can't see how this shows John the Baptist was opposed to the law, rather, he was opposed to those not keeping it and practicing false worship. Later we find Jesus taking the same message to the religious leaders of the day, accusing them of putting heavy loads on the peoples shoulders and not being willing to help them. He also accused them of fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah by following the traditions of men, letting go of the commandments, and making the word of God invalid. (Matt 15:1-11 23:4. Mark 7:5-8) On another occasion when the rich young man asked; "What must I do to get eternal life?" Jesus plainly said; "Obey the commandments." Even this wouldn't make him perfect though, as when the man said; "All these I have kept," Jesus told him to sell all his belongings and follow him. So we find two things here then; firstly, that Jesus taught everlasting life was dependant on obeying the law, or commandments and secondly obedience to the law wouldn't make you perfect. (Matt 19:16-22) It also shows that rather than abolishing the law, Jesus enhanced it and this is waht I meant when I refered to the Sermon on the Mount.

    You used this example:in the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus teaches, by firstly reminding the people of the law on adultery and then saying; "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart." (Matt 5:27,28)

    Where in the Law is that found?

    Here, Jesus wasn't rewriting the law, but enhancing it, and in fulfilment of Jeremiah 31 making a new covenant with his followers by putting the law in their hearts, or as NWT puts it; "I wil put my law within them and in their heart I shall write it." Jesus was using a prevention method, to get people to think about things more deeply, and control their thoughts first, before it led then into sin. (Jer 31:31-33)

    To be honest Joseph, I hadn't thought about Jesus issuing commandments before, but wasn't that acceptable in his role as a prophet? Even more so if he was the Son of God. By issuing these commandments he in no way undermined the law though and its interesting that when challenged over which was the greatest of the commandment Jesus replied; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind...And...Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matt 22:34-40) Its also worth noting that the person questioning Jesus was "an expert in the law." The command to love God is found at Deut 6:5 and correct me if I'm wrong I don't think the command to love neighbour appeared in the law in as many words, but the expert obviously knew it was there in essence, otherwise he would have challenged Jesus about this. Really, Jesus summed up the law perfectly here and if his followers kept those two things in mind, (loving God and neighbour) they would have fulfilled their obligation to the law. All of the other commands Jesus gave fell under these two statements and we could say were part of the law.

    And Jesus said: Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And again: Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. Since Jesus was providing commandments of His own that differed from the Law and its commandments as taught at the last supper by drinking the wine which represented His blood for example how is it that this Jesus was supporting the Law and its continuation? And how about this commandment of Jesus: 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. Where is this found in the Law?

    As a prophet of Yahweh, teacher and rabbi Jesus represented his God and father, so these were not his own commandments and John 8:27-30 makes that quite clear for Jesus said; "I do nothing on my own but speak just as the Father has taught me." Jesus would hardly overstep the commandments of God, by making up his own, when that's exactly what he critisized the Pharisees and Scribes for, would he?

    So many texts like Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses - apart of Paul’s writings so where do I start? Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. A better hope brought in? Not a continuation of this Law? Any other form of worship deemed better would have violated this Law making the worshipers apostate and libel to be stoned. Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Wow! The Law broken big time. Get out the stones. And it goes on and on like this but not so if your mind is closed. It is not necessary to cover every verse and cross every tee. You have your views and I have stated mine. It is up to the readers now to study the matter on their own and make up their own minds.

    The point I made was that I hadn't seen anything other than in Paul where Jesus, or John the Baptist suggested they were going to abolish the law, yet all the verses quoted above were either penned by Paul, who most scholars believe wrote Hebrews, or his disciple Luke, who wrote Acts, so we'd expect them to suggest this. (Colossians 4:14 & Philemon 24)

    The priesthood and rulership of Israel was changed, just as Jeremiah and Ezekiel had prohesied. Why? Because they had continually disregarded the Law and had turned away from true worship. Ezekiel 21:26 makes it quite clear when Yahweh commands; "Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low. A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin. It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it."

    The above prophecy forcasts the end of both the royal and priestly lines, which would not be the same, but rather, would be given to whom it rightfully belongs and quite possibly a King/Priest in the manner of Melchizadek. (Psalm 110:4) Just because the priesthood was changed due to their dissobedience to the law, there is nothing to suggest that the Law had to change also.

    Thanks again Joseph for a most interesting debate.

    Steve J

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Steve J,

    The Law is the Law and even such prophecies did not give a date as you assume may have happened in Jesus day. Such prophecies still require someone here to administer them and perform the necessary sacrifices the Law demanded. Well then perhaps you can tell us how you are keeping the Law and getting forgiveness for your sins? Did you find a Levite Priest or this King/Priest to sacrifice the Lamb for you to observe the Passover and other required observances. Do you or will you stone someone as the Law required. De 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Just how do you keep the Law in our time? It was not Luke or Paul but James a lawkeeper for many years after Jesus died who finally gave up on it and said: Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, hi is guilty of all. So how can anyone keep this Law in our day?

    Joseph

  • Steve J
    Steve J

    Hi Joseph,

    The point I am making is that the early followers of Jesus, those known as the Way, seem to have observed the law, just as Jesus and John the Baptist did, and we find evidence of this in Acts, but when Paul broke away from the ture teachings of Jesus and became apostate, he began teaching the Gentiles there was no need for observance of the law, or to practice circumcision. This was obviously more palatable for Gentiles to accept and eventullay as the numbers of his disciples grew those of the Way deminished. I believe Paul was one of the false prophets Jesus warned about and possibly the one identified as the Antichrist by John.

    I say Paul broke away, but that's assuming that he was ever a true convert in the first place. I feel he may have been working for the High Priest, but also had Roman backing. Why else would letters from a High Priest in Jerusalem be valid in Syrian Damascus, where the High Priest and even Herod come to that, had no jurisdiction at all. The Roman's certainly wouldn't have tollerated hit squads wandering about from province to province arresting people and dragging them back to Jerusalem to stand trial would they?

    Saul then had a miraculous "conversion" which wasn't witnessed by any of Jesus' followers, so they only had his word for it when he claimed to have renounced his former way of life. It was only after some time that Saul, who then took on the Roman name Paul, was allowed into the congregation of the Way and interestingly soon after, their persecution eased for some reason. This I believe was to lull them into a false sense of security and once Paul had met with Peter and James in Jerusalem he set off on his missioary. James who seems to have been presiding over the Governing Body in Jerusalem was then arrested and executed. Strange, isn't it?

    Paul seems to have put his life on the line time after time when preaching to the Jews, but isn't it strange how the Roman's came to his aid and rescued him in Jerusalem when his life was in danger?

    I believe Paul was working for the Roman State all along and what better way to destroy a movement than from within? What a brilliant job he did too, as Christianity today bears little resemblance to the true teachings of Jesus who lived by an taught his followers to obey the Mosaic Law.

    Such prophecies still require someone here to administer them and perform the necessary sacrifices the Law demanded. Well then perhaps you can tell us how you are keeping the Law and getting forgiveness for your sins?

    The simple answer is I don't. I am neither Jew, or Christian and am unsure where my path is taking me at the moment. All I know is that I still love the Bible and believe the clues are all there when we look into it deep enough and shake off our preconceived ideas. I also think that if you want to find out what the true teachings of Jesus were, you couldn't do better than to study the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran community. The resemblance between their teachings an those of Jesus and the Way, are striking to say the least.

    I realize that what I've written here will sound shocking to most who contribute to this site, but these are the conclusions I have reached since leaving JW's and looking at the Bible afresh.

    Just though! Can you be disfellowshiped from the Forum, or branded apostate? If so, I won't be around for long, will I?

    I don't claim I'm right, or that I have the "truth", but the more I look into it, the more proof I seem to find for my theories. I can't really do my theories justice here either, as I think my posts are long enough as it is, but would be willing to explian further if anyone is interested.

    Thanks again for your replies Joseph. It's good to have your ideas challenged, isn't it?

    Regards & respect

    Steve J

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Just though! Can you be disfellowshipped from the Forum, or branded apostate? If so, I won't be around for long, will I?

    Steve J,

    No problem here as far as I know compared to some others. Your view does not even make a ripple by comparison. The reason I asked about how you would keep the Law is even if you are not personally involved you must have thought this all out beforehand and should have been able to answer my question. I was not expecting the matter to be left unanswered. This is something I also wanted the forum to see. Take care and we should see you around here as long as you like.

    Joseph

  • Bible_Student777
    Bible_Student777

    You need LESS BRAIN and MORE FAITH! What's the point of all these intelligent questions and observations? REBOOT and BELIEVE!

  • Bible_Student777
    Bible_Student777

    Narkissos, you and Leolaia are conspiciously intelligent critical thinkers with a wealth of knowledge. Have you thought of applying for a position on the GB? They could use some brainiacs to make up for the human drudge muckers.

  • Steve J
    Steve J

    Hi Bible_Student777,

    You need LESS BRAIN and MORE FAITH! What's the point of all these intelligent questions and observations? REBOOT and BELIEVE!

    Those poor misguided guys who flew the planes into the Twin Towers had so much faith they were even prepared to sacrifice their own lives for what they believed in.

    What a waste!

    FAITH IS DANGEROUS!

    Steve J

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    FAITH IS DANGEROUS!

    Steve J,

    And could it be that your real mission is to remove it from the minds of true believers? True Faith cannot be compared to the reckless acts of others steeped in ignorance. Faith should not be confused with destructive belief systems like Islam. Faith along with other positive qualities is not dangerous as you say but essential. Some examples are: 2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Such Faithful ones did not destroy innocent lives in a unwarranted terrorist attack.

    Joseph

  • Steve J
    Steve J

    Hi Joseph,

    I didn't think I'd get away with FAITH IS DANGEROUS without some sort of reaction.

    Faith based on fact is fine, but blind faith, such as those guys had who flew the planes into the Twin Towers is dangerous, that's why I called them misguided.

    Faith should not be confused with destructive belief systems like Islam.

    I doubt if you have ever read, or studied the Qur'an, but if you had, you would have kown that Islam is a peaceful religion, so I can't see how you can call it destructive. Agreed there are those fanatics who twist their Scriptures and tell their followers they speak for Mohamed, (peace be upon him) but there have been fanatics in Chirstianity over the centuries who have done much the same thing and we wouldn't call Christianity destructive, would we?

    I thought the point Bible_Student777 was making was that we shouldn't think about things, but just have more faith and that's what I took exception to, as that would be blind faith and blind faith is dangerous. The problem is, that faith without evidence is not open to discussion, or argument, it is therefore unreasonable and unreasonable faith can be used as a justification for all sorts of evils.

    In some ways I think atheists are far more reasonable people than any who profess to belong to a religion, as when you take God and the Devil out of the equasion it makes us all more responsible for our own actions, as we then can't claim to have been influenced for good, or evil, by exterior forces. Everything we do, good, or bad, is then just down to us, but if we just believe without question, we can then be manipulated by external forces into possibly even evil acts, such as acts of terrorism. That is the problem with belonging to an organized religion, such as JW's. I'm not suggesting for one moment they would ever encourage acts of terrorism, but if you just go along to the meetings and olny read WT publications without giving things too much thought, it's all too easy to begin to believe you have the "truth" and when you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, your on dangerous ground. I remember speaking to an Elder once who told me that he would follow the GB's instructions without question, as they were the chanel Jehovah was using. I then asked if they told him it was Jehovah's wish for us to go out and start killing all the wicked, if he would. Without thinking he replied with a resounding; "Yes" and to me that's frightening.

    Even if you believe you have the truth, you should still question it, if only to confirm it, but once you start believing without evidence, or without giving it too much thought that's when you stop growing spiritually and become open to all sorts of crazy ideas. Basically that's why I feel faith is dangerous, because if its not backed up by hard fact, by proof, then you become no better than the terrorists.

    Steve J

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