All Saints Day

Yerusalyim

It's here, The Feast of All Saints. The actual Christian celebration behind Halloweeen. Today's scripture readings for Mass included Revelations talking about both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" In Catholic Theology the "Great Crowd" is clearly in heaven, before the throne of God. A much more comforting picture than the absentee Landlord scenario presented for the Great Crowd by the Society.

Hoping ya all had a great Halloween Celebration. God Bless.

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Tina

Hi yeru,
All saints day originated with the 'pagan' celebration of the fall equinox that celebrated the years harvest /bounty,the completion.
The height of the fall,the end of the earths annual cycle was believed to be a time when the veil the separates the world of the living from the world of the dead becomes very thin. The Church had long attempted to prevent this celebration.The chruch placed christian holidays to coincide with these earlier festivals in hopes of winning recognition and acceptance. They moved it to November 1st and by 1045 the monastaries of Cluny had begun to observe this time as a day for all departed ones.
Since the church couldnt fully abolish what they identified as 'pagan practices'(anything that meant enjoyment and celebration of nature) they incorporated these to garner membership in it's early days. So the actual celebration behind it has nothing to do with the scriptures,great crowd or heaven. Tina

Jehovahs Witnesses,Proudly Serving Their Corporate Masters!

Yerusalyim

Tina,

Does any of that take away from the celebration? Even the Passover was celebrated by pagans before the Jews came along. There is no celebration in history that doesn't have some type of pagan root, after all, all our ancestors were at one time pagan.
The scriptures read at today's mass were put in place for the day, the holiday itself is not rooted in those scriptures. THe Church just thinks it's a good idea to celebrate a feast rejoicing all those who are in heaven.

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Tina

Hi yeru,
"does any of that take away from the celebration...'
Yes it does actually.
Since the original celebration had to do with nature,and ones integration of the seasons in their lives.These were changed as political manueveurs used by the church to gain power and authority.
The church changed these to commemorate biblical tenets that had no bearing on earth cycles.
With this continued lust for power,using these changes,it was then able to dictate heresy by it's domination and control of people.
Changing these celebrations to a singular masculine authoritarian god who demands unquestioning obedience,it allowed them to persecute those who didnt conform.(heretics)
From these beginings of celebratory changes,leading to power/control- allowed the church to amass enormous wealth along with its power,leading society to languish into the dark ages......
"The church just thinks it's a good idea to celebrate...'
Yes of course it did. Like I said above,these 'good ideas' were the initial steps into societys virtual bondage as it took over leadership in Europe and the roman empire collapsed.In doing this the church all but wiped out education medicine,technology science art and commerce.
Yes it was an important move in political manuevering for power.Nothing spiritual about it. And nothing innocent or innocuous about it,considering what the results were,as history shows us.
I dont give a toss what folks celebrate. They should understand the real history of what they're doing is all. regards,Ti

Jehovahs Witnesses,Proudly Serving Their Corporate Masters!

bluesapphire

Tina - not to pick a fight or anything but....

Oh Please! Who gives a hoot about the origins of a celebration? Why exactly do people NEED to know????? It's fine if they do and fine if they don't. It's up to the interests of the individual.

FYI, baptism was a pagan ritual before Jesus made it Christian. Circumcision was an Egyptian ritual before the Israelites incorporated it and so on and so on. Who cares where Holloween originated? Yeru's post was simply giving us background into the Christian feast of All Soul's Day. Obviously, since he's Christian, he's interested in it. It's for those who are INTERESTED. Get it? Those who aren't need not reply.

It's only idiots like the Jdubs who put this all-important NOTION that people must absolutely know the origin of something before they practice it. Time to scrub that and all the other dub nonsense away and down the drain!

WHO CARES?

bluesapphire

Okay, a demon typed "WHO CARES" at the end of my post. I swear I did not type that. Spooky! :-)

Tina

Hi blue,
No,it's not jdubs who have this idiot notion to know origins of celebrations. Some of us are quite interested in religions,their beginnings and evolution. Ever take any classes in comparative religion? Religious history? Philosophy etc? Many degreed people out there have made this topic their life study. You don't get out much into academia do ya? lol This is also a board for debate. I can reply whether I agree or not. If I choose to comment on any given subject,I can.get it? lol
Try opening and scrubbin yours darlin before you make such assinine assumptions as to why people think the way they do. Get it? Yeru happens to be a friend of mine and I dont think he minds debate with me.

Jehovahs Witnesses,Proudly Serving Their Corporate Masters!

Yerusalyim

Tina,

I love ya, you know that.

Your reading of history is very narrow. Did the church lust after power, or did it fill the void left by the collapse of the Roman empire? Or was it both? Another reading of history suggests that the Church was the only institution available to preserve the light of civilization in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between the two.

To reject the celebration of a Holiday because that holiday had pagan origins or was used to consolidate power would pretty much eliminate the celebration of any holiday.

Just a thought.

Yeru
(aka Michael)

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Tina

(((((yeru))))))))
Mornin hun!
Thanks for replying.
I don't see where I called for anyone to reject any celebration....maybe it sounded like that. Not what I meant at all. What any celebrates or not is their personal decision. I was merely commenting on the history of celebrations. I dont' believe my view is narrow.:>
Well,as far as the church preserving history, an open objective reading shows thats not quite true.When one thinks of the libraries burned(thinking of the one in Alexandria in in 391,them declaring the fields of roman and greek medicine heresy. Education for anyone outside the church coming to an end,the suppression of the sciences which set humanity back as much as 2 millenia,etc.....
anyway,back to celebrations.Like I said,my interest in them is simply historical. I think celebrations at times are good in the sense that it provides family cohesion,opportunities to be with extended family etc.
I was thrilled to read your halloween experience. It's been great to watch your wife exiting the JW mindset!! I remember when you first started posting .The progress has been tremendous! But then,you're very patient and tolerant,and you've helped her so much. Just by being you :> Yanno the old adage,folks would rather see a sermon then hear one....I'm just pleased and happy for both ! And you know you are one of the christians I greatly admire and respect.:>
Luv ya ! Tina

Jehovahs Witnesses,Proudly Serving Their Corporate Masters!

Sirona

Hi,

I hope you dont mind me giving my opinion...

I am pagan, and I dont mind who celebrates what holiday. The only thing that does really annoy me is when people say pagans are *evil* and everything pagan is *evil* and then they proceed to have their xmas (tree, lights, holly, gift giving, winter solstice, etc.) which wouldnt be the celebration it is without the pagan traditions. I know neither of you were saying that the paganism is evil. The point Im making is that I like the idea of everyone being fully aware of their celebrations background, and then they can make the decision themselves whether to celebrate. I cant believe how many people have no idea of holidays origins!

Even today I had a christian say halloween was to celebrate the birth of the devil, and I said if you mean the birth of the pagan "horned God" I think you will find that his birth is celebrated on the Winter solstice (dec 22 or thereabouts) which is why you have christmas. He he, boy was he shocked!

Anyway, I feel better now I've had my moan...

Thanks!
Sirona

All Saints Day

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