Is all religion in some way abusive?

by nvrgnbk 42 Replies latest jw friends

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Some time back I got this little book Ideas and Opinions, by Albert Einstein. It gets a bit "thick" at times LOL, but for the purposes of this topic perhaps the following has some pertinence (bolds added):

    Religion and Science: Irreconcilable?

    A response to a greeting sent by the Liberal Ministers' Club of New York City. Published in The Christian Register, June, 1948. Published in Ideas and Opinions, Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1954.

    Does there truly exist an insuperable contradiction between religion and science? Can religion be superseded by science? The answers to these questions have, for centuries, given rise to considerable dispute and, indeed, bitter fighting. Yet, in my own mind there can be no doubt that in both cases a dispassionate consideration can only lead to a negative answer. What complicates the solution, however, is the fact that while most people readily agree on what is meant by "science," they are likely to differ on the meaning of "religion."

    As to science, we may well define it for our purpose as "methodical thinking directed toward finding regulative connections between our sensual experiences." Science, in the immediate, produces knowledge and, indirectly, means of action. It leads to methodical action if definite goals are set up in advance. For the function of setting up goals and passing statements of value transcends its domain. While it is true that science, to the extent of its grasp of causative connections, may reach important conclusions as to the compatibility and incompatibility of goals and evaluations, the independent and fundamental definitions regarding goals and values remain beyond science's reach.

    As regards religion, on the other hand, one is generally agreed that it deals with goals and evaluations and, in general, with the emotional foundation of human thinking and acting, as far as these are not predetermined by the inalterable hereditary disposition of the human species. Religion is concerned with man's attitude toward nature at large, with the establishing of ideals for the individual and communal life, and with mutual human relationship. These ideals religion attempts to attain by exerting an educational influence on tradition and through the development and promulgation of certain easily accessible thoughts and narratives (epics and myths) which are apt to influence evaluation and action along the lines of the accepted ideals.

    It is this mythical, or rather this symbolic, content of the religious traditions which is likely to come into conflict with science. This occurs whenever this religious stock of ideas contains dogmatically fixed statements on subjects which belong in the domain of science. Thus, it is of vital importance for the preservation of true religion that such conflicts be avoided when they arise from subjects which, in fact, are not really essential for the pursuance of the religious aims.

    When we consider the various existing religions as to their essential substance, that is, divested of their myths, they do not seem to me to differ as basically from each other as the proponents of the "relativistic" or conventional theory wish us to believe. And this is by no means surprising. For the moral attitudes of a people that is supported by religion need always aim at preserving and promoting the sanity and vitality of the community and its individuals, since otherwise this community is bound to perish. A people that were to honor falsehood, defamation, fraud, and murder would be unable, indeed, to subsist for very long.

    When confronted with a specific case, however, it is no easy task to determine clearly what is desirable and what should be eschewed, just as we find it difficult to decide what exactly it is that makes good painting or good music. It is something that may be felt intuitively more easily than rationally comprehended. Likewise, the great moral teachers of humanity were, in a way, artistic geniuses in the art of living. In addition to the most elementary precepts directly motivated by the preservation of life and the sparing of unnecessary suffering, there are others to which, although they are apparently not quite commensurable to the basic precepts, we nevertheless attach considerable imporcance. Should truth, for instance, be sought unconditionally even where its attainment and its accessibility to all would entail heavy sacrifices in toil and happiness? There are many such questions which, from a rational vantage point, cannot easily be answered or cannot be answered at all. Yet, I do not think that the so-called "relativistic" viewpoint is correct, not even when dealing with the more subtle moral decisions.

    When considering the actual living conditions of presentday civilized humanity from the standpoint of even the most elementary religious commands, one is bound to experience a feeling of deep and painful disappointment at what one sees. For while religion prescribes brotherly love in the relations among the individuals and groups, the actual spectacle more resembles a battlefield than an orchestra. Everywhere, in economic as well as in political life, the guiding principle is one of ruthless striving for success at the expense of one's fellow men. This competitive spirit prevails even in school and, destroying all feelings of human fraternity and cooperation, conceives of achievement not as derived from the love for productive and thoughtful work, but as springing from personal ambition and fear of rejection.

    There are pessimists who hold that such a state of affairs is necessarily inherent in human nature; it is those who propound such views that are the enemies of true religion, for they imply thereby that religious teachings are utopian ideals and unsuited to afford guidance in human affairs. The study of the social patterns in certain so-called primitive cultures, however, seems to have made it sufficiently evident that such a defeatist view is wholly unwarranted. Whoever is concerned with this problem, a crucial one in the study of religion as such, is advised to read the description of the Pueblo Indians in Ruth Benedict's book, Patterns of Culture. Under the hardest living conditions, this tribe has apparently accomplished the difficult task of delivering its people from the scourge of competitive spirit and of fostering in it a temperate, cooperative conduct of life, free of external pressure and without any curtailment of happiness.

    The interpretation of religion, as here advanced, implies a dependence of science on the religious attitude, a relation which, in our predominantly materialistic age, is only too easily overlooked. While it is true that scientific results are entirely independent from religious or moral considerations, those individuals to whom we owe the great creative achievements of science were all of them imbued with the truly religious conviction that this universe of ours is something perfect and susceptible to the rational striving for knowledge. If this conviction had not been a strongly emotional one and if those searching for knowledge had not been inspired by Spinoza's Amor Dei Intellectualis, they wouid hardly have been capable of that untiring devotion which alone enables man to attain his greatest achievements.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Onacruse,

    The interpretation of religion, as here advanced, implies a dependence of science on the religious attitude, a relation which, in our predominantly materialistic age, is only too easily overlooked. While it is true that scientific results are entirely independent from religious or moral considerations, those individuals to whom we owe the great creative achievements of science were all of them imbued with the truly religious conviction that this universe of ours is something perfect and susceptible to the rational striving for knowledge. If this conviction had not been a strongly emotional one and if those searching for knowledge had not been inspired by Spinoza's Amor Dei Intellectualis, they wouid hardly have been capable of that untiring devotion which alone enables man to attain his greatest achievements.

    Yes, a very interesting passge and one that very much melds with the post Leo made on the self-deception thread.

    HS

  • onacruse
    onacruse
    Yes, a very interesting passage and one that very much melds with the post Leo made on the self-deception thread.

    I hope I didn't just replicate what Leo said...these threads are getting so intertwined! LOL

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    The Anglican and Episcopal churches tend to be very healthy places to raise children. I have memories of being an infant, too young to think in words, in the nursery at church and being carried into the childrens church service. I have never felt so loved, adored, secure and full of magic as I did that morning. And I was given a very healthy view of God and so on, nothing dogmatic at all. My grandsons love the Episcopal church.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Given that there are over 2000 denominations of Christianity alone, and hundreds of divisions of the other major religions, I can't answer as to the nature of "all religion", but I do know I'm not being abused nor do I know of any of my faith that are. carmel

  • R.Crusoe
    R.Crusoe

    A JW will think in giving you their faith they are saving you! Someone having a faith that promotes eternal torment for those who fail its rulings will think they are saving your soul! Religion is passed onto youngsters by indoctrinated others who feel compelled to do so because they are imprinted with illogical rules of how we all must behave to avoid evil. I have not explored all religions enough to conclude them all to be abusive. I wish to learn more about Buddhism for example - but of the ones I am aware of I do think they activate conflict which is abuse!!

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    I think Einstein was just being deferential to those old ministers.

    He knew that spirituality and religion are not interchangeable.

  • R.Crusoe
    R.Crusoe

    I just read a few responses and can see some people are inside their faith and feel its cool. I would differ greatly with them as respects their beliefs conflicting with other humans worldwide and on a whole range of issues. Religious belief usually oppresses the human spirit and species in general. It does not seek to enhance and engage what it is to be a human being for the benefit of all humans and humankind as a whole. Too much judgement is conditioned into too many of us to know the difference one way or the other! The more I listen to atheism, the more I believe they have much to teach religion about love - which is ironic considering God is love - or is supposed to be. So I'm very interested in atheism and how its morality works for us all without worrying what God thinks of their ideas. It's the best way to free your mind and work out what's best for us all without going to ancient manuals full of stressful inescapable rulings IMO.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    nvr:

    He knew that spirituality and religion are not interchangeable.

    I'm not exactly sure about that:

    Science and Religion

    This article appears in Einstein's Ideas and Opinions, pp.41 - 49. The first section is taken from an address at Princeton Theological Seminary, May 19, 1939. It was published in Out of My Later Years, New York: Philosophical Library, 1950. The second section is from Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.

    If it is one of the goals of religion to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in yet another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusions. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.

    The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. In this sense I believe that the priest must become a teacher if he wishes to do justice to his lofty educational mission.

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Consider the impressionable mind of the infant.

    Is it fair to indoctrinate them with dogma?

    Dogma:

    1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.

    2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.

    3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.

    4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

    Is it "dogma" to teach them that they must eat and drink what is healthy to remain healthy?

    Is it "dogma" to teach them that they exercise to remain healthy and become healthier?

    Is it "dogma" to teach them that they must read, observe, question, develop reasoning ability and knowledge in order to grow in wisdom?

    Is it "dogma" to teach them that they must work in order to support themselves?

    Is it "dogma" to teach them that they should avoid what is dangerous to their lives or other's lives, or their future?

    Dogma, as a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle is unavoidable in teaching a child.

    Then how or why is healthy religious instruction, or dogma, "unfair" or "abusive"?

    Abuse is caused by an individual incorrectly believing what is right is wrong, and what is wrong is right.

    Abuse isn't unique among those proclaiming a religion.

    Nor are care and kindness unique among those not doing so.

    However, God has told us what is right and what is wrong in the Bible, it isn't up to us to determine that for ourselves, although we may learn that the hard way. And only healthy religion (true Christianity) teaches that through the Bible. The advantage of obeying God and teaching our children and others to do so is that we don't have to learn the hard way. True Christianity prevents abuse while encouraging and instilling kindness, care, and the other fruits of the spirit, which come from God, who is love, perfect love.

    So, no, not all religion is potentially abusive, just false religion and non-religion.

    BA- Avoid abuse, obey God by reading and learning from His word.

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