So is it Evolution or Creation

by Punk 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

BurnTheShips

Eclipse, I'll have to correct you on that. The authorities were wrong to persecute Galileo, but it was not because Galileo contradicted scripture.
Before the 16th century, most educated people accepted the theories of the Greek astronomer Ptolemy, who held that the Earth was stationary and the sun revolved around it. The geocentric universe was a classical, not a Christian, concept. The Christians accepted it - though not because of the Bible. The Bible never says that the sun revolves around the Earth. Christians accepted Ptolemy because he had a sophisticated theory supported by what seemed like common sense (i.e., everything does seem to revolve around the Earth) and that gave reasonably accurate predictions about the motions of heavenly bodies.
I guess it is time for you to add another epicycle to the tired old Galileo canard.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/20071125_He_didnt_suffer_all_that_much.html
nvrgnbk

PS - but for the sake of brvity
In fairness, I think brevity was rendered "brvity" for the sake of... brevity.
That extra "e" can have a way of bogging down a post.
BurnTheShips

I hate the E's. I always pick them out of the soup mommy makes.
Gopher

In 1633, Galileo was a victim of the myopic Inquisition, let there be no doubt about it. The church put him under house arrest for attempting to (correctly) espouse the "theory" of heliocentrism in place of the then-prevalent notion of geocentrism, which they believed to be supported by Scripture.
Pope John Paul II felt the need to clear Galileo's name in 1979, more than 3 centuries later. The Inquisition's ruling was that Galileo could not prove 'beyond doubt' that the earth orbits the sun, so they could not reinterpret scriptures implying otherwise.
This sounds to me very similar the rules that creation-believers set on scientists today -- since scientists cannot prove 'beyond doubt' the theory of evolution, that such scientists are to be ridiculed, and tax dollars must be spent to prop up the teaching of creationism in public schools.
nvrgnbk

If you ever feel a moment of doubt, an instant where you might just believe a little tiny bit, ask. Ask God for faith.
Then what's going to happen, Burn?
Gopher

EARTH IS NOT A PLANET --- THE SUN IS A PLANET !!
What is a "Planet"?The Greek root word "planao" means to go astray, wander or roam about. The Bible warns about false teachers who deviate from the truth of the Christian Faith. They are "wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever" (Jude 13). Early astronomers chose the word "planet" to describe celestial bodies that seemed to deviate from simple rotation about the earth. According to modern theories, the earth is the third planet from the sun. The sun is just one mediocre star among billions. We live on a speck in a vast, impersonal universe. Really?
The Bible is Geocentric.
According to the Bible, it is actually the sun that travels around the earth. Our world stands unmoving in the center of a universe that was created by a wise and all-powerful God. Isaiah records a miracle where God simply and clearly made the sun move backwards in its normal course. "Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sundial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down" (38:8)
The Psalmist compares the sun to a runner in a race around the earth: "...the sun...rejoiceth as a bridegroom to run his race. His going forth is from the end of heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof" (Psalm 19:4-6).
Are these Scripture verses "mere poetry"? Are they the silly myths of ancient, "primitive" peoples? The Bible nowhere teaches the modern theory that the earth is in motion around the sun. Christian heliocentrists, like "christian" evolutionists, must bring their atheistical assumptions with them when they come to God's Word. A man stranded on an island with only a Bible could never dream up such things.
What sort of "Idiots" think the Universe Rotates?
(1) Martin Luther: "{Heliocentrism} wishes to turn the whole of astronomy upside down. ...I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still and not the earth."
(2) John Calvin: "I have no doubt ... from the established alterations of days and nights, that the course and revolutions of the sun, moon, and stars, are regulated by the marvelous wisdom of God."
(3) George Gillespie: "{Papists} condemn the very heathenish names of the days of the week imposed after the names of the planets, Sunday, Monday, etc."
(4) Wilhelmus a Brakel: The truth is that God states in many places in His word that the sun is in motion, her curcuit resulting in both day and night, and that the wordl remains both motionless and stationary. Nowhere does God speak to the contrary...
How do "Scientists" know that the Earth is Moving?You tell me. Infidels scoff at the Bible by saying that the stars could not move quickly enough to circle our world daily. Well, if the globe is spinning rapidly, why doesn't our atmosphere spiral off? Atheists tell us that the earth is spinning, circling the sun, rotating with the galaxy AND rushing away from the big bang. And neither you nor I can feel any motion!
DARWIN, ASIMOV, SAGAN & RODDENBERRY
Honest reflection tells us that human beings are as utterly unique among animals as is the earth among the heavens. We possess language, ethics and technology - we are simply not mere beasts. But Darwin claimed otherwise. What Copernicus did to the earth, Darwin did to the earthlings - reducing us to one of many evolving animals. No one has ever observed macro-evolution. It is as far beyond our senses as the motion of the earth. Yet millions do see evolution on a weekly basis! TV shows like "Star Trek" portray for us a universe rich with advanced "humanoid" beings. It is a basic dogma of humanism that Extra Terrestrials must exist. After all, if evolution happened here - and if we are one speck among trillions - it must have happened other places as well. Taxpayer dollars are wasted listening for our fellow beings from outer space. Why can't they be found?
TERRA FIRMA, CAELUM ROTATUM
The error in this equation is not the logic, but the premises. Neither heliocentrism nor evolutionism is true. Therefore, the conclusions carefully drawn from them are false. The earth is still, and we are alone in the universe. The sun, moon and stars are planets. You can see them move with your own eyes. God made these heavenly bodies to give us day and night, the lunar month, the north star for navigation, and other such useful information. Any fool can see that the extant universe is designed for earthlings.

http://www.geocities.com/armedconventicle/geocentrism.html
funkyderek

BurnTheShips:
What is odd and rather telling is how Christianity is attacked on all sides and for all contradictory reasons.
Well, Christianity is not homogeneous and neither are its opponents. There are many different ways of being a Christian and many reasons to dislike Christianity (or various aspects thereof).
One accusation against Christianity frequently seen here is that prevents us, by morbid fears and terror of divine retribution, from seeking comfort and joy and liberty in this life. We should give it up to "enjoy life". I believe because I am afraid.
Certainly in some cases that is true, particularly among fundamentalists. The fear of being tortured for eternity is very real for many Christians and causes them to eschew all sorts of worldly pleasures. Children are taught that even thinking wrong thoughts can be enough to label them worthy of this horrific and unending punishment.
A complementary accusation sometimes made by Christians against unbelievers is that it is we who are afraid. Knowing that we are worthless sinners doomed to hell because we are unable to follow the rules, we apparently deny God's existence so as to put our minds at rest and/or to entice others to join us in our damnation.
Then we see the opposite opinion lobbed across the bows, that I cling to it for a fictitious comfort, a fairy tale world because I fear life itself.
More because you fear death, perhaps. The idea that we never really have to lose our friends and relatives but will rejoin them in paradise at some future date is so compelling that I would say it is one of the principal attractions of religion.
When my identity as an atheist is revealed, one of the most common questions I am asked is how I can believe that "when you die, that's it". (My answer is that I believe it because the available evidence compels me to believe it, even if I would wish otherwise.).
Then I am told here that Nature nature is beautiful and awesome enough, that I don't need to invent a sky father. The world is enough.

But then another says that Nature is ugly, and pitiless and indifferent, and because of this there can be no God.
Nature is beautiful but indifferent.
Christians often wax lyrical about how perfect the world is and how obviously designed for humans, but then insist that God can't be blamed for natural disasters that are clearly due to design faults. "Creation reveals God's goodness" unless it's obviously bad in which case "God moves in mysterious ways".
One says my Christian faith is a nightmare, and in the same thread another calls it a paradise for fools.
For some who are compelled to live it and perhaps believe the horrific tales of eternal torture they are subjected to, it may indeed be a nightmare, while for those who choose to believe, religion can provide them with a purpose and a circle of friends that they might have difficulty finding elsewhere. Depending on the circumstances, it can bring pain or pleasure, independent of its veracity.
Of course the unbeliever is often told that he must be miserable without God in his life, and any misfortune that besets him is trumpeted as proof of that. Of course a happy and successful unbeliever is pointed to as an example of someone enjoying the temporary pleasures of the flesh.
On the one hand I am a coward to cling to it, and on the other I am a fool to put up with it!
It's a tenet of fundamentalist Christianity that atheists are fools, and it's often stated that they're cowards or otherwise lacking in moral fibre, even that they secretly believe and in times of great worry, will turn back to god. ("No atheists in foxholes")
Vexing and contradictory accusations. Paradoxical. And very telling. Faith is rejected. The reason does not matter.
There are lots of reasons that people believe in gods. They certainly do not apply to every believer and it's important not to tar them all with the same brush. The same of course applies to unbelievers. It's much more fruitful - if correspondingly more difficult - to examine an individual's particular reasons for believing or not believing and to argue those, rather than take general potshots at a strawman.
SickofLies

This misunderstanding was caused by human ignorance and misapplied authority, not a correct understanding of Scripture.
Same is true of the crusades.
And the current US administration's actions while claiming they are "Christian".
All these people have the wrong interpretation of scripture eh? I suppose you would throw JW's and anyone else in there who doesn't agree with you. I suppose the only one with the correct interpretation is you?
lol, of course your probably going to be a smart ass and reply something along the lines that 'only god knows' or something like that, but if that's the case then how can you be sure that these people got it wrong? Unless of course god talks to you. I wouldn't be surprised if you thought he did.
The one thing all you creationists seem to be missing is that ID and Creation 'science' are dead issues, they have had their day in court multiple time and in front of conservative judges and lost each time, why? Because ID and Creationism isn't science, it isn't even a real theory. It's just a rejection and criticism of evolution and cannot provide any means to make predictions on its own.
This is all well documented and is now part of established legal code.
SickofLies

This misunderstanding was caused by human ignorance and misapplied authority, not a correct understanding of Scripture.
Same is true of the crusades.
And the current US administration's actions while claiming they are "Christian".
All these people have the wrong interpretation of scripture eh? I suppose you would throw JW's and anyone else in there who doesn't agree with you. I suppose the only one with the correct interpretation is you?
lol, of course your probably going to be a smart ass and reply something along the lines that 'only god knows' or something like that, but if that's the case then how can you be sure that these people got it wrong? Unless of course god talks to you. I wouldn't be surprised if you thought he did.
The one thing all you creationists seem to be missing is that ID and Creation 'science' are dead issues, they have had their day in court multiple times and in front of conservative judges and lost each time, why? Because ID and Creationism isn't science, it isn't even a real theory. It's just a rejection and criticism of evolution and cannot provide any means to make predictions on its own.
This is all well documented and is now part of established legal code.
VoidEater

BA:
His conclusions in no way were "signifigantly differ from the scriptures".
So you say. So I say. But the holders of "truth" at the time succinctly said that, in their opinion, it was against scripture. The point is that scripture is always interpreted, and can therefore the Bible can only speak to one person at a time.
BTW - just how many "types" are there, then?

So is it Evolution or Creation

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