Paul's Letters: Part of "All Scripture ..." ?

by compound complex 88 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • CyrusThePersian
    CyrusThePersian

    JosephMalik

    I must humbly disagree. In ancient times people didn't bandy about with words like "prophesied" like we might today.(After all, this was an era when "blasphemy" could get you killed.)

    James H. Charlesworth, Princeton's George L. Collord Professor of New Testament Language and Literature stated that Jude's use of eprophéteusen (prophesied) shows that Jude felt that his source material (1st Enoch 1:9) was inspired.

    If the author of Jude did not believe 1st Enoch was inspired (and many people of that time DID believe it was inspired) he would NEVER have cited it as a prophecy, not even to make a point.

    CyrusThePersian

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace!

    Well, what can I say? I understand your... ummmm... reluctance, or caution, even, regarding phoning: it is as it should be, so I am not knocking you. As I stated to you, I am not an expert at argument, and, really, your arguments appear to be much better than anything I could ever come up with on my own (although I think the "mediator" comment is a red herring and totally unfounded). I do need to clarify a couple/few things, if I may:

    1. I am not anonymous here, not at all.

    2. I am no one's mediator, in a spiritual sense. I cannot mediate peace between you and God (only Christ can); I can, however, say as did those before me, "I have found him [MischaJah]!" or, rather, and particularly in my case, "I have been found... by him!". Neither this, nor going out and telling others about what occurred with them, while inviting such others to have the same thing(s) occur with them, made those before me mediators. It does not me, either. Rather, it is simply a fulfillment of the charge to "Go, make disciples." I would be negligent, therefore, both to the One who sent me... and those to whom I am sent... if I remained silent.

    3. Finally, Christ... is not God. Truly. Yes, I know, many believe there is a "trinity". There is not. Truly. There are only two:

    a. The MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and

    b. His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... who became a "life-giving spirit"... holy and glorified... and thus, IS the Holy Spirit

    Moving on, I must admit, woman of flesh [with its blood] that I am, I thought about responding to your statements in my usual line-by-line "style,"which I believe would have given you additional "food" for thought. (My apologies: I ususally respond that way in order to do so as accurately as possible). But I came upon this:

    I am just curious in your conversations with your Lord if you can tell me what's on his mind. I am truly curious what you are hearing.

    Thus, my PM stands. I am further compelled by the Spirit to say to you that I am at your service, day or night. (Note, today is probably a particularly good day, because there is a fairly decent storm going on and so I am not expecting to be very busy; however, it is at your convenience as I am the servant here). I must also tell you that I cannot use my gift in a "medium" or "psychic" capacity: while it does work in a similar way, I can only share what I receive from the Spirit... and only with regard to YOU; if YOU wish to respond or ask questions... YOU must do that yourself, on your own behalf... and on your own... because, as you correctly stated, I am NOT your "mediator."

    As servant to the Household of God, my sole task, at least in this regard, is only to show you HOW to do that: HOW to ask, respond and otherwise communicate, so that YOU (and NOT me) can do it FOR yourself. Thus, like John [the Baptist], at some point I will/must "decrease" - i.e., get out of HIS way - so that HE can "increase" and deal with you... and you with him... directly. Him/he being MISCHAJAH and not God. And he tells me when that is; which can be fairly quickly, I might add. On occasion, the person involved doesn't particularly like that - they aren't quite confident in their own level of faith, and so initially experience feelings of... ummmm... abandonment? when I say I have to get out of the way. So, they want me to continue; however, I cannot: once my Lord says, "Remove yourself, Child," I must do so. This is proper for two reasons:

    1. The sheep are not mine; I am merely his servant... and theirs... and to remain would be a usurping.

    2. I can't give another faith; I can only point them to the One who can. So if such faith is lacking it will NOT increase... until I get out of the way... because it is a "fruit" of God's spirit and, therefore, must come directly from Him, through Christ.

    Soooooo... I leave it to you... and Christ... and to our Heavenly Father ("No one comes to me, unless the Father draws him...").

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my Heavenly Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whose name is JAH of Armies, and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... so that you ARE "drawn"... if you indeed wish it.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    I must humbly disagree. In ancient times people didn't bandy about with words like "prophesied" like we might today.(After all, this was an era when "blasphemy" could get you killed.)

    CyrusThePersian.

    Nonsense. It happened all the time and they were not killed for it. So much for the brilliant authorities you used. Perhaps you can write them and tell them that they should read the bible more carefully. Then they would know that what they were saying was a lie. Have you never read the truth where it says: Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. And since Jude knew exactly what their views were he could use their own such prophecies against them. You have no argument. But there is one thing to learn from this. People are always pulling things out of their rears and getting away with it. This is what I would like the readers to be aware of and guard against.

    Joseph.

  • CyrusThePersian
    CyrusThePersian

    JosephMalik,

    Nonsense right back at ya!

    Jesus Christ himself was sentenced to death for the "crime" of blasphemy! -Matt.26:64-68.

    The point I was trying to make is that Jude would have been more careful in his use of the word eprophéteusen if he didn't believe that 1st Enoch was an inspired work.

    CyrusThePersian

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Jesus Christ himself was sentenced to death for the "crime" of blasphemy! -Matt.26:64-68.

    CyrusthePersian,

    Get it right for a change. It was a false charge of blasphemy which is not the same thing.

    Jesus was not wrong, they were wrong and the crime was theirs. When they would blaspheme it was alright which just shows the twisted thinking they had. Still no proof just ramblings.

    Joseph

  • CyrusThePersian
    CyrusThePersian
    It was a false charge of blasphemy which is not the same thing.

    Yes it is! It still got him killed, didn't it?

    Whether the charge was true or false is not the point. The point is that just saying a few wrong words to the wrong people at the wrong time could get you killed back then, which is why (getting back to the main point) it's unthinkable that Jude would would refer to !st Enoch as a prophesy if he didn't believe it was inspired.

    SIDEBAR: According to definition #3 in my American College Dictionary the word blasphemy can mean, "The crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God." Therefore, technically speaking, Jesus was guilty of blasphemy!

    CyrusThePersian

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    "The crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God." Therefore, technically speaking, Jesus was guilty of blasphemy!

    Not if those rights rightfully belong to you. And raising the dead, healing the sick, and walking on water etc. is a powerful way of "putting your money where your mouth is".

    Burn

  • CyrusThePersian
    CyrusThePersian
    Not if those rights rightfully belong to you

    If those rights rightfully belonged to him he should have proved it to the chief priests and the Sanhedrin. Since Jesus made the assertion that he was the son of God, which is what netted him the charge of blasphemy in the first place, it behooved Jesus to offer proof of who he was to his accusers. He did not. Therefore the charge was valid, based on his own testimony.

    What would you have done if you was a member of the Sanhedrin and some yahoo was brought before you and he told you he was the son of God? Remember, Jesus wasn't the only one to make that claim in this era.

    And raising the dead, healing the sick, and walking on water etc. is a powerful way of "putting your money where your mouth is".

    For some reason, the Sanhedrin and the chief priests in the book of Matthew, as well as secular historians of that time (and the apostle Paul, who doesn't mention any of Jesus' miracles) seem singularly unimpressed with Jesus' miraculous feats. Could it be that they never happened? Can you prove that they did?

    CyrusThePersian

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    For some reason, the Sanhedrin and the chief priests in the book of Matthew, as well as secular historians of that time (and the apostle Paul, who doesn't mention any of Jesus' miracles) seem singularly unimpressed with Jesus' miraculous feats. Could it be that they never happened? Can you prove that they did?

    Cyrus the Persian,

    Can you prove that they did not? This is the past, things happened and not everyone knew of them just like now. Not every detail was recorded. And it was not unusual to ignore material already covered adequately in other texts. No one is asking you to believe it. Get lost if you do not like it. But no, you want to influence someone else as if you knew better. But in reality you know nothing about such past history and just want to argue.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Whether the charge was true or false is not the point. The point is that just saying a few wrong words to the wrong people at the wrong time could get you killed back then, which is why (getting back to the main point) it's unthinkable that Jude would would refer to !st Enoch as a prophesy if he didn't believe it was inspired.

    Cyrus the Persian,

    Saying the wrong words to the wrong people is the very point indeed. It was not blasphemy that caused the problem, it was the mind set of the people involved. Others did it and were not killed as Jesus himself stated. You have no argument here. We are talking about blasphemy not the assumption of blasphemy. Your assumption that using this word prophecied forces Enoch's message to be inspired scripture is false. And you have the same mindset these people had, that Jude should be killed if understood otherwise. It is a mindset just like the one that killed Jesus.

    Joseph

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