The Problem with Atheism by Sam Harris

by nvrgnbk 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    It is a very deft (transparently daft to me) reframing of belief by Harris in trying to parallel it to racism. He wants to consign me to a lunatic fringe of hooded racists but who have I hung from a tree and what harm have I done anyone because of my belief? Harris does not believe in God, he is a...what is he? He does not want a label but he is perfectly happy to label me.

    He demands evidence for theism but there is not a scrap of evidence for atheism. Atheists howl about how they alone are reasonable but pray tell is reason scientifically measurable? Can it be quantified? He believes in reason however.

    To believe in God is far more rational than rejection based on "science" which does not and never will be able to deny the possibility being a domain of knowledge inaccessible to it. Harris wants to destroy belief in God but retain all the trappings that he believes are beneficial. He says my emperor has no clothes. I say that his clothes have no emperor. A hollowed out beam that won't support any weight is what he will be left with. A pretty garment without a body. He wants religion without faith. In dumping the basin, he loses both the baby that he wants to keep and the water that he does not. The bliss of faith without the faith. Sex without consequences. It really is the same thing. Having the cake and eating it too.

    The atheist brigades say that biological evolution evidences no sentience even though sentient influences are strongly evidenced in the evolutionary process. A reasonable conclusion mught be that such influences not only create goals for the evolution but also provide the basis for religion coming into existence.

    I WANT to believe. Harris does NOT.For many it is a choice in the end. He wants to create conditions of social pressure where people will be more likely to choose to not believe. Social engineering. Ridiculous. He is no different from the fundamentalist atheists he is adressing in the audience, he merely disagrees with how to accomplish the goal. Eradication will never be universally possible. Some of us perceive God more clearly than others. You can tell me to try to believe blue is red or black is white and even offer me a million dollars but I can't believe what I know is not true and neither can you. Harris thinks what I believe is complete bunk but it doesn't cost me anything and besides I really relate to it. So just what is his problem here?

    Without a grounding in the Absolute the atheists create a relative world where truth is in the eye of the perceiver. Deny away. People make up what they want to believe is right. The problem is that this leads to one of two states, totalitarianism, where the powerful tell us what is right and we have no choice, or anarchy, where everyone decides what they want to believe and the hell with whoever is in the way. It makes Man into God. Christians believe God wants to make us like Himself, but in a completely different way. He takes us into Himself and paradoxically we become more ourselves than we could ever have been. He took our form in the incarnation of Jesus Christ in order to accomplish this purpose. He became one of us so that we could become like Him.

    I took this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I believe it is very applicable to the discussion.

    Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.

    The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

    The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment.

    The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.

    The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.

    God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

  • Gopher
    Gopher
    He demands evidence for theism but there is not a scrap of evidence for atheism.

    Once again, atheism is LACK of belief in a deity. It's not a belief that needs evidence. (If you don't believe in good luck, can you produce evidence that "good luck" doesn't exist? How can you disprove a negative?) ALL the items you bring up about the theory of evolution are a different subject then atheism -- related yes, but strictly is not atheism.

    God is not visible, and not 100% evident or provable. Therefore, the burden of proof (if there is to be any proof in this believer-atheist debate) is on the believer.

    I WANT to believe. Harris does NOT.For many it is a choice in the end.

    This is the most lucid point you made in your post, BTS, and it is 100% true. I'd say for EVERYBODY it should be a choice, not just many.

    He wants to create conditions of social pressure where people will be more likely to choose to not believe.

    Awwww, pity the poor believing majority! Anytime an atheist puts out reasons to not believe, and maybe even gets a little forceful in doing so, some believers cry 'persecution'.

    Really now -- over the centuries the believers have been in the majority, in power, and have waged wars and inquisitions against non-believers. Even now they are still in the majority (at least here in America, as well as in Muslim countries and in India).

    SOCIAL PRESSURE -- give me a break! If believers don't want to read the likes of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins, they don't have to. No atheists are going to war or conducting inquisitions strictly to convert you to the non-belief of atheism.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    SOCIAL PRESSURE -- give me a break! If believers don't want to read the likes of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins, they don't have to.

    Harris creates a clear parallel between combatting racism as it was done in the past and combatting theism. So, despite what you say, it is not merely a matter of refraining from reading a book in his mind.

    Awwww, pity the poor believing majority! Anytime an atheist puts out reasons to not believe, and maybe even gets a little forceful in doing so, some believers cry 'persecution'.

    It will come to real persecution, before it ends. You wait on it, it will come. It has happened before, and is happening now elsewhere.

    Burn

  • 5go
    5go
    He demands evidence for theism but there is not a scrap of evidence for atheism. Atheists howl about how they alone are reasonable but pray tell is reason scientifically measurable? Can it be quantified? He believes in reason however.

    Yes there is no evidence to prove atheism because you can't prove a negative. An atheist can ask theist to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that god exists and that they have the correct beliefs about him. If they can't he remains an atheist.

    In short atheism is the lack of belief ! The burden of proof for belief never lies with atheism the burden of proof will always lie with theism to proove it's case.

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    The atheist brigades say that biological evolution .... (yada yada)

    NO, you have been told multiple times that evolution and atheism have nothing to do with each other. Atheists existed LONG before evolution was ever discovered. That fact alone is blatantly obvious proof that evolution is not a prerequisite for Atheism... End of discussion.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    NO, you have been told multiple times that evolution and atheism have nothing to do with each other .........End of discussion.

    Hardly. I have heard evolution used as a crutch for atheist sentiment by atheists many many times. That darwinistic evolution does away with the need for God to explain life and humans is put forward here many many times.

    So, the discussion is not over. Deal with it.

    It always cracks me up when some nimrod tries to end it like this LOL.

  • Gopher
    Gopher
    I have heard evolution used as a crutch for atheist sentiment by atheists many many times.

    This is second-hand evidence.

    OK, I'll use some second-hand evidence of my own: I have read and know of many believers who also believe that the evolution theory is factual. In fact, I attended an atheist - versus - believer debate in Minneapolis about 2 months ago, and the believer conceded that evolution happened (as in "God set evolution in motion, for his purposes").

    So that to me blows apart the strong atheism - evolution connection. (Not trying to end the discussion, but I think this point is unassailable.)

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    This is second-hand evidence.

    It is first hand to me. I hear it all the time straight from the atheists mouth. I try to convince them but its like beating a dead atheist. alt

    (Not trying to end the discussion, but I think this point is unassailable.)

    There are many atheists that do not believe in God because of evolution. How many theists do you know that believe in God because of evolution?

    There, I have assailed it.

  • erynw
    erynw
    Another problem with calling ourselves “atheists” is that every religious person thinks he has a knockdown argument against atheism.

    This is exactly why I call myself, and am, a secular humanist.

    I don't want to get into an argument with some christian zealot.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    The theists who believe evolution may not believe in God BECAUSE of evolution, but it supports their belief in God in this fashion: they believe it was a sophisticated and elegant system that God started, to get the ball rolling on evolution and let it develop into creations that would populate the earth.

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