by journey-on 26 Replies latest jw friends
Can any of you scholars out there with access to WT lit., tell me when JWs began calling it "the torture stake" and who
was the leader that implemented this change? Was it Russell or Rutherford or possibly Knorr? I seem to recall seeing
pictures of very old lit. with a cross symbol on it. Was the cross still being used in 1918?
who was the leader that implemented this change?
I think it was Judge Rutherford who made this change. I think this was a part of his bold move to seperate the Watchtower from the rest of Christendom
As a child, I thought one of the soundest Watchtower teachings was their unique claim that Jesus died, not on a cross, but a stake, gratuitously described in the NWT as a "torture stake". They claimed the evidence was solid and incontrovertible.
However, over the years I realised that their use of evidence was highly selective and their use of reasoning to bolster the "cracks" in the evidence, highly suspect.
Another JW belief bites the dust.
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation shows the Greek word translating directly to "stake" which then got translated to "torture stake". Other translations say "cross". Anyone know if the original Greek version actually said "cross"?
Hi.
"They claimed the evidence was solid and incontrovertible."
They claim that a lot!
http://biblos.com/matthew/10-38.htm
The Greek is "Stauros" which is cross (there is no separate word for "cross") and also "stake".
Historical evidence aside, it now comes down to a matter of faith if we believe that Jesus died on a cross or stake.
God requires faith not proof so stake your claim!
Regards,
Stephen
Anyone know if the original Greek version actually said "cross"?
I understood that the original Greek term 'stauros' could mean either cross or stake. Could others confirm or correct that?
Strong's Greek Lexicon Online Bible Dictionary Project
number - 4716
orig_word - staurovß
word_orig - from the base of (2476)
translit - stauros
tdnt - 7:572,1071
phonetic - stow-ros'
part_of_speech - Noun Masculine
st_def - from the base of «2476»; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.
IPD_def -
an upright stake, esp. a pointed one
a cross
a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
the crucifixion which Christ underwent
I remember thinking- Oh- the cross is bad because it resembles a phallus.................but the stake kind of looks more like a phallus??!!
The WTBTS argument goes that the word starous did not mean cross when the passage was written and that after constantine decided he needed a symbol that could unite the pagans and christians that the meaning was added . Reading the 4 gospels it's obvious the jews were the ones that wanted jesus impaled on a tree or stake as in deuteronomy there is a part about hanging people on a tree.
Hi,
Don't believe everything you hear, especially when it comes from the WTO!
Is a wooden cross not a (dead) tree? A tree has a trunk which is vertical and branches that are more horizontal?
You could are the same for stake being a dead tree but given the track record of the WTO and truth I would stick my money on THE CROSS!
Regards,
Stephen
