Was Jesus a False Prophet? (page 3)

Scorpion

JA,

So you have no faith in anything living or tangible?

Bang

Joseph writes:

<< It is unimaginable that an all-knowing god would think that anyone would believe that the words "drink any deadly thing" actually meant "be exposed to other faiths." >>

Bang responds.

What was Jesus saying to the woman at the well when he said, "but whoever drinks the water that I give him...."?
Those who believe In Him can 'drink' other drinks; others are deadly because "I am the Way". They won't be harmed by it - and I know it to be so.

Bang

Moxy

we all have faith in something unprovable in the strictest sense. no one can prove that the world is not an illusion in their mind alone. this is an extreme example but in the end, nothing is absolutely provable. we draw conclusions based on what we subjectively find to be the most believable, by whichever criteria we choose, not that which is absolutely proven.

on this topic, if you dont mind, i would like to quote Teilhard, one of the most intelligent religionists i have ever read:

If, as the result of some interior revolution, I were to lose in succession my faith in Christ, my faith in a personal God, and my faith in spirit, I feel that I should continue to believe invincibly in the world. The world (its value, its infallibility and its goodness)- that, when all is said and done, is the first, the last, and the only thing in which I believe. It is by this faith that I live. And it is to this faith, I feel, that at the moment of death, rising above all doubts, I shall surrender myself.
- Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Christianity and Evolution, p. 99.

i would like to hear what you think of our jesuit friend here, mr alward.

mox

JosephAlward

Moxy,

De Chardin's faith in the physical world is stronger than whatever faith he might have God; he would sooner sacrifice his belief in what might be rather than his belief in what is, and so would I.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Moxy

agreed joe. just wanted to sort of throw this in to show that we all have some kind of faith in the unprovable after you had claimed not to. and when i first read this statement by teilhard it really struck me as the most sensible explanation of faith id ever heard.

mox

JosephAlward

Bang,

Mark 16:18 "they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

It's clear from the passage above that Mark is having Jesus speak of the physical harm that comes from being bitten by snakes, or contracting leprosy after touching the sick, not the "spiritual" harm that might come from someone who might "drink in" a false doctrine.

Thus, everybody would know that Mark is speaking of an actual, physical poison. God would have known that's what his readers would think, and that's why God didn't guide Mark in his writing of this passage.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Bang

Joseph writes:
<< It's clear from the passage above that Mark is having Jesus speak of the physical >>

Bang replies,
You seem very sure, considering you don't know it to be, can't prove it, and imply that you don't even believe the passage.
As I was asking, what did Jesus mean when He said, "..whoever drinks the water I give him..". I don't think He had a flask behind His back.

Considering also the lepers you mentioned - the hypocrits. A priest would check for a whiteness of skin (outward appearance of holiness) and the living flesh would appear (with a life of it's own, taking over).

I do also believe that these physical signs will follow His disciples, but not necessarily all the physical signs with one disciple.

Bang

TR

Joseph,

I saw a apecial on 20/20 or the likes, about a group of Pentacostals that handle snakes and drink strichnine water. The poisonous water didn't make these old dudes sick. Supposedly, the water was tested, and it did indeed contain strichine. Whether it was enough to make them sick, I don't know.

Have you heard of this?

TR

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
—Edmund Burke

Scorpion

TR,

I saw a special about two years ago similar to the one you mention. I remember seeing a few of the people that handled the snakes get bit. There was one person that had been bit over 50 times over the course of a few years. Maybe the people were immune from being bit so many times, maybe the snakes were milked before handling, maybe they are God's chosen people and they are the true religion. [8>]

Personally, I think they are a bunch of nut cases.

JosephAlward

TR,

Yes, I've heard about it. The body develops antibodies to strychnine and snake venom if these poisons are taken in small quantities over a long period of time.

Of course, this does not validate the claims Mark had Jesus make; he was referring to ANYONE who had faith; and it's certainly not true that such people can drink deadly poison will go unharmed. Thus, if Mark was correct and Jesus said this, then Jesus was a false prophet; alternatively, if Mark was wrong, and Jesus didn't say this, then the Bible is in error.

The relevant verse is repeated before for reference.

16 WHOEVER believes and is baptized will be saved...And these signs will accompany those who believe...when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Was Jesus a False Prophet?

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