Trash THIS!

by Farkel 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • belbab
    belbab

    Journey On.

    I read ya!

    I am trying to put together some meaningful comments on Paine's essays.

    I just looked up this thread to review, the original post of Farkel, so I don't miss the mark.

    Then I read your last two posts. We are on the same page.

    However, if when I do get my stuff together, I will post it here, I accept all that is written in this present thread as a part of what is. For me, posting it elsewhere is an escape, a judgement.

    For as Desiderata instructs:

    Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

    belbab

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello Journey On,

    I am not sitting by my computer 24 x 7. ;)

    My apologies, I thought that you were a mainstream Christian from your past postings. I must have misunderstood some of your posts. Why get miffed about a misunderstanding? Perhaps you take on-line life a little too seriously?

    Many times I have spoken out against organized religion of any kind! I'm a bit affronted actually that I have been this misunderstood by you and perhaps that explains the display of personal animosity toward me.....

    This is an issue within your own head Journey On. I have no personal animosity toward you, though given your outrageous, unprovoked and very personal attacks this past weekend, for which I note you have not aplogized, perhaps I should.

    Just for the record, I do not 'hate Christians' as one person has suggested and which you seem to be hinting at. I do not even hate religion, any religion, because like Thomas Paine, these days I have an historical view of religion and its anthropological development. Religion is part of mankinds attempt to make sense of the mystery that lies at the root of consciousness, but this fact alone does not mean God exists, or that any religion has anything but fantasy as its foundation.

    I do dislike bigots, and hypocrites. For example, Christians, or anybody else for that matter, who suggest that Muslims should be 'nuked', and we have had quite a few of these on this Board in recent years, will get no quarter from me.

    Regardless, it is noteworthy that Farkel's post, though criticized by many seems to have had more effect in 'helping others' (the common excuse given as to why people spend too much time on JWD) than numerous threads that revel in fluff and nonsense, and I think we can both agree on that.

    Cheers - HS

  • donkey
    donkey

    Farkel should be nuked!! He has no concept of the plurality of God and is indeed set to burn forever because he is going to be consumed by the Luciferian fury that awaits his hedonistic soul. Farkel how dare you question FAITH. Without FAITH you would starve. Reality just isn't all it's cracked up to be.

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    Belbab -- I like your outlook and am looking forward to hearing your comments on the essay.

    Hillary_Step -- I'm not at my computer 24/7 either. I'm not really miffed, but nobody likes to be misunderstood. I now consider myself a "regular" on this board, as I'm sure you also consider yourself, and since it is a discussion forum, the regulars should know the basic philosophical bent of other regulars to some degree (especially if they choose to verbally attack one another).

    I have no personal animosity toward you, though given your outrageous, unprovoked and very personal attacks this past weekend, for which I note you have not aplogized, perhaps I should.

    Apology accepted. My statement a couple of pages back was my weak attempt at an apology to you:

    By the way HS....I was the one that said I picture you that way (not that you are). The mention of socialism in America makes me forget my manners, as does a perceived injustice to a poster just trying to make a statement.

    Now, back to the topic. You mentioned "root of consciousness". What did you think of Paine's thoughts on consciousness?

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Journey On,

    Now, back to the topic. You mentioned "root of consciousness". What did you think of Paine's thoughts on consciousness?

    I am heading out right now, and will return to this shortly, but just for the moment, a few comments.

    Paine's views were not written in islolation and this has to be noted. For example his view that creation is the revelation was already fairly well established in the pantheistically inclined philosphers in the UK and Germany at the time, no doubt he had read their thesis. They were the philosophy of the hour and affected the thinking of most thinkers and poets, just like the latest fashion would today.

    It has to be acknowledged, that while his work on framing the OT and NT against a backdrop of logic, he was able to do this due the material at hand. His philosophic views were however imbued with the same level of ignorance that imbued science and society and the not always progressive thought of the age. Today he might have had a very different view on consciousness and revelation through creation as his source material for this philosophy would have been quite different.

    HS

  • Tara
    Tara

    I am reading Age of Reason now. Thomas Paine was a Deist like Thomas Jefferson and other Founding Fathers. They believed in one supreme God, but did not believe in revealed religion. I agree with them.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    A clean slate might be best, as some have suggested here.

    For those so inclined:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/150929/1.ashx

    Burn

  • belbab
    belbab

    Greetings Maestro Farkel, any JWD “Heavies”, wannabees and fellow Knit-Twits:

    This thread was started as a challenge with the instruction to THRASH THIS!

    My comments are not an acceptance of the challenge. After reading Paine’s essays I do not have any desire to trash them, rather, I would like to plant flowers in memory for him, and remove any weeds from his grave. I have heard of Paine before, but never knew any great details about him.

    The era when he wrote his essays were a time of great upheaval and tribulation, the French revolution and the break-away birth of the United States. At times of travail new nations and the content of new times are brought into existence. Most often those introducing new paradigms are rejected. Ezechiel, speaking about the birth of a nation; (paraphrased) they are cast out in the field like a newborn still attached to its afterbirth, neither washed or wrapped. No one pities them, no compassion for them, only derision. But the universe says Live! Live! And they survive.

    Such a one, I believe was Thomas Paine.

    In his introduction he states regarding his article that, I intended it to be the last offering. He expected it to be a sacrifice and the end result would be leaving his blood on the prison cell floor.

    He writes the reason for his article,

    The circumstance that has now taken place in France, of the total abolition of the whole national order of priesthood, and of everything appertaining to compulsive systems of religion, and compulsive articles of faith, has not only precipitated my intention, but rendered a work of this kind exceedingly necessary, lest, in the general wreck of superstition, of false systems of government, and false theology, we lose sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true.

    He summarizes his belief:

    I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

    I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

    These words vibrate to the depths of my being.

    Nov-Dec 2007 was a fortieth anniversary for me. It marked the time I was freed and awakened from JW shackles over my thinking and my life. Since then I have done a lot of thinking and waiting. Waiting for someone to arrive and corroborate and confirm my thoughts. During that time I watched many who in their parting from the ways of Jaydom have lost sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true.For similar reasons as Paine, allow me to present my thinking.

    In Chap II, Paine introduces his thoughts on Revelations. He says that religionists label their written work, the actual pages themselves’ as the Word of God.

    His definition: Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

    The meaning of the word Revelation, as I see it, has changed down through time. All it means is an unveiling, a drawing back of the curtain on things unknown. The clergy of religions believe they can take out patents and copy rights on revelations. Why does one patent an invention? For profit, for self aggrandizement and ego enhancement. Consider the fairy tale of the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs ( which I consider as a revelation). The man that owned the goose, was quickly followed by the clergy with hands on his shoulder and behind them trailed the business men, the scholars and commoners, all greedy. The goose was the creativity of the man.

    Whenever creativity arises, whether in a child, and inventor, an explorer, a scientist, a healer, and a searcher for the What-for of things, the curtain is drawn open to unveil the unknown and bring it into existence, into the light. Inspiration, a breathing -in has taken place. One cannot monopolize creativity.
    Paine, in my opinion still stuck to some after- birth of religion, maintains that revelation only takes place when God reveals information to the first person, all the remainder only hear it by hearsay.

    I do not believe that revelation stops with the first person; the first person may be the first to open up space for the introduction of the message, but he is only a channel, a window heaven, a first born. The following persons that hear the revelation and accepts it and resonates with it, forms, with the one who first received the revelation, a collective person. They become united in one mind. However if any second person, clings, keeps attached and identifies with his traditional thinking, he will take the new information as a threat and seek to destroy the new message and also the messenger.


    My conclusions to this point:


    The Bible has become crystallized. The book itself has been made into an idol.
    The Bible with all its translations, omissions and additions, selections is not the Word of God. It is only a record of past events, some of those events have been labeled as myths because of obscurity that beclouds ancient accounts..But myths have meaning and I love the book. The Word of God is reality itself, the seen and the unseen, that opens to the understanding of man down through the ages.

    Revelation continues daily, it expresses it self in many ways, song, dance, inventions, discoveries in science, discoveries in human behavior. No one group holds a monopoly on it, it breaks out spontaneously, out of the blue, in the most unexpected places.

    That's all for now.


    belbab

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    Belbab

    I can see that this essay "spoke to you", as well. You said: "After reading Paine’s essays I do not have any desire to trash them, rather, I would like to plant flowers in memory for him, and remove any weeds from his grave."

    When discussing Paine's thoughts on Revelations, you said:

    "Whenever creativity arises, whether in a child, and inventor, an explorer, a scientist, a healer, and a searcher for the What-for of things , the curtain is drawn open to unveil the unknown and bring it into existence, into the light. Inspiration, a breathing -in has taken place. One cannot monopolize creativity.
    Paine, in my opinion still stuck to some after- birth of religion, maintains that revelation only takes place when God reveals information to the first person, all the remainder only hear it by hearsay.

    I do not believe that revelation stops with the first person; the first person may be the first to open up space for the introduction of the message, but he is only a channel, a window heaven, a first born. The following persons that hear the revelation and accepts it and resonates with it, forms, with the one who first received the revelation, a collective person . They become united in one mind. However if any second person, clings, keeps attached and identifies with his traditional thinking, he will take the new information as a threat and seek to destroy the new message and also the messenger."

    So, basically you are in disagreement with his belief that a revelation is for the individual only. You believe others that resonate with the one presenting his/her "inspired" revelation will form a collective and become united in one mind. Isn't this how religions are formed? And once a religion is formed, isn't there then the tendency to behave and think according to their rules? This is where the danger lies. One then begins to follow after the teachings of men. But I do see where you're coming from.

    I DO BELIEVE as Paine that a revelation is for the individual only. I believe it to my core to be true. And when one receives a "revelation", it is to be held close and personal. It is not to be spouted out as some sort of message from God. But those personal revelations anchor your belief in a consciousness outside yourself that on rare occasions reveals something to you alone. I KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE. There is so much to discuss and discover about consciousness. Thus Paine's words: My mind is my church.

    Paine reiterated what I have believed for years. God speaks to the individual through his creation if you have ears to hear and eyes to see. Some might call it inspiration or personal creativity, but even Paine spoke about the two consciousnesses.....the one within and the one that comes in through an external source.

    I'm so glad you chose to make an input to this topic. I enjoyed reading your well-presented personal response to Age of Reason.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Well to be fair Farkel did say to "Trash THIS" and so many of us did and were keeping in the theme and so you deserve to be congradulated.

    But it seem a new movement now to express, fondness, and creativity that has been unleashed by reading his essay. I especially enjoyed Jo,Bel,HS and others post too. HS of course hit the nail on the head with his backround info, and logic that should help a person to appreciate further his writtings.

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