by Doug Mason 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
Faith is a gift
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;Doesn't that mean that grace is a gift rather than faith ?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
-My take is that it's salvation ("have been saved") that is the gift.
So now we have three interpretations of the same scripture in one thread. Can we come up with a few more?
A&O
This should be a thread of it's own.
Works is the thing that one could boast about. According to this passage, FAITH is merely the conduit for receiving the GRACE - as opposed to some that were working for salvation.
If faith is not a work, How do you produce and/ or exercise faith?
Unlike what the Witness's teach,you don't have to go from door to door marking up hours and telling reporting it on paper to men and living in dread that you have some how not done enough to receive the benefit of Christ ransom sacrifice because the power of his sacrifice it goes out to all people. Its like someone handing a starving thirsty person a cup of water they can have it for free if they put forth an effort to swallow it. Jehovah even goes so far as to provide help to all those who never ever heard of his plan who are dead in the grave when he raises them to life again and even then they will only have to be willing to be reeducated in his ways under the best possible circumstances. Wow what a god.
Jehovah's Witness's take too much upon them selfs as far excluding this group or that group or this individual or that one, either certain ones mentioned in the bible or ones they personally feel in modern times will not be remembered by Jehovah and his son Christ Jesus by means of the ransom sacrifice, this outlook puts one in a very precarious position in Gods sight.
In over 2000 years, we are still waiting for a gift promised to us. The gift is supposed to be everlasting life because of Christ sacrifice. Faith can go on and on...you would think that somewhere in 2000 years that promise would have been delivered.
Hi TopHat,
"In over 2000 years, we are still waiting for a gift promised to us. The gift is supposed to be everlasting life because of Christ sacrifice. Faith can go on and on...you would think that somewhere in 2000 years that promise would have been delivered."
That gift starts straight away. Why do you think Jesus said partake in His new covenant and be born again?
Contrary to what the WTO teaches concerning the dead, those who believe will NOT lie unconscious in the ground till Kingdom come but in Heaven.
Paul new it because he had already been up in third heaven!
2 Corinthians 5:8 (New International Version)
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Jesus knew it because that is where He came from and where He is now.
Luke 23:42-44 (New International Version)
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
There are many verses to this effect and the WTO pin all their beliefs on a single verse Ecc 9:5
If you want to understand what that verse means then start by reading Job 14 and pay close attention to the verses at the end.
Make sure you don't use the NWT for anything else but uncovering its deceptions!
Use any version you like here or one you have at home.
http://www.biblegateway.com/
All the best,
Stephen
Jesus Christ is Eternal Life. When the believer shares his life with Jesus Christ's, then the believer -- here and now -- shares in his Eternal Life. This is talking about the quality of the life we now enjoy.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched —this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete. (1 John 1:1-4, NIV)
God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:10-12, NIV)
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20, NIV)
What interesting and fascinating thoughts. Thank you.
The following are my responses, but that does not mean I am totally correct – just my thoughts.
If God is “love” why does he … allow pain and suffering, kill innocent pregnant women with a flood, sacrifice his monogenes son, etc.?
1. God is not accountable to us. Rather, it is we who are accountable to him. His ways are not our ways.
2. The Greeks NT has several words that we translate with “love”. The divine love is “agape”, which is concerned with principle. It is not to be confused with words such as “eros” or “storge”. I recommend the book “New Testament Words” by William Barclay as a good reference, although others probably exist. We will chastise our child because they transgress a boundary, because that is the right thing to do, but that has nothing to do with erotic or emotive love.
3. One has to assume that the story of a flood being universal is literally true. It is likely the writers were taking a known (local but massive) event, even a myth, and were using it for their own purposes.
Doug’s theory says that when the stories were being collated (and edited), probably about the time of Josiah and later, the priests used that story as a means to address the contemporary evil condition of the people of Judah. They were worshiping false gods, even in the Temple, they were sacrificing their own children to these false gods, and so on. So here was a tool to warn the people of the consequences of their actions. The political fight for supremacy by the priests of YHWH (at the settlement of Jerusalem) against the followers of Elohim in the northern regions could have also been an influence.
I fully agree that religion, particularly religious intolerance, has been the cause of most wars and deadly conflicts. Leaders often use religion to further their plans to control their own people and others.
God set the standard and then provided the means.
I believe in a completely theocentric soteriology that says God sets the highest standard and then set about to complete his requirement. I am comfortable with the idea that even our faith comes from God.
If you go to
http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/The_Salvation_I_believe_in.pdf
you will find a piece that I wrote while I was still a member of the SDA Church (hence the reference to “time”). It provides an overview of my theocentric soteriology.
We are saved solely by the completed work of God through Jesus Christ, motivated as we are by the Holy Spirit. All we need “do” is believe and our faith is sufficient. The Spirit is then able to work on each of us, and we then manifest “fruits” of that work. It is an individual personal relationship, not a corporate one.
How can God justify a person who has not heard of Jesus’ sacrifice? That is God’s matter, not mine, and we should leave that to him. He is the Judge, not I.
I do not believe that doctrinal correctness provides salvation. What does matter is that I do know. Little is expected of he who knows little. More is expected from you and I, since we know more. It is up to each person to respond to the pleadings of the holy spirit, for to resist those pleadings is to commit the sin that cannot be forgiven.
My study?
I will appreciate any constructive comments and criticisms of the piece I made available. I am working at making my initial writing available, of which the pages I provided are a distillation.
Doug
DD :
I'm sure that Doug doesn't mind - this is an offshoot afterall.
If faith is not a work, How do you produce and/ or exercise faith?
However, this is in an area of literalist Christianity that I am not sure that I can delve into at the moment - my views are broader now; but speaking in those terms
Faith in itself, is simply believing without definitive proof.
Works are a fruit of faith - works (such as those indicated by the Bible) are the result of faith.
I would say that faith, (like any belief) is something that sits inside you - at your core - it then steers you to act in certain ways.
For example, the belief that we are all "one" - leads to treating others as you wish to be treated.
AlphaOmega,
You are quite correct - I don't mind how people develop a Thread that I start. I appreciate the thoughts that are generated. You should see me smile as I read them.
I want to take this opportunity to say "Thank you" to those people who both agree with me and those who disagree with me. I appreciate all your inputs, for they help me develop.
A special "Thanks" who tell me they appreciate the scans and material I am able to make available. Even more "Thanks" to those very knowledgable and resourceful people at JWD who have broadened my horizons and understanding.
Doug
I would say that faith, (like any belief) is something that sits inside you - at your core - it then steers you to act in certain ways.
A&O
I agree! I guess my question to you is, do you believe the atheist that says; he can't believe in God? If so where is his faith? Why do you have it while the atheist does not?
