How Would a JW Answer This Question? Opinions, Please.

by GoddessRachel 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  R.Crusoe

  No Sad Emo, they would not treat you as negatively as a 'satan class' apostate because you have not yet been baptised but they would see you as having been given good news direct from God and reject it so I think they would say,' hello' but not keep calling. An apostate gets no hello even!

  My gran had them call on her for well over 20 years but never stopped smoking and never got baptised and never turned them away. When I asked she never explained why but I think it was just to have extra company and keep them on calling round without any onus on her. Maybe not but it did seem that way coz that's what I did for her, but even more often!

  As soon as you go to meetings and baptism you are under obligation to do what the woman who sees you does - I advise you to run!!!!
• 

  erynw

  And why would he continue to test people like my family, who is hurting because so many of their children and their friends' children are "leaving the truth." I guess I think the JW's feel like the broken shells of people that they are is somehow proof of being persecuted by Satan.

  Ecclesiastes 3:18 (New International Version)

  18 I also thought, As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
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  GoddessRachel

  I guess I need to rephrase my question. Gopher got my weird thinking the most, but he still went in a different direction than I intended.

  OK I'm rusty on JW teachings apparently, then. Maybe this is just something my JW family believes. I thought that one thing they say to the JW's at the Kindgom Hall is that the reason why so many people are leaving is because Jehovah is weeding them out. And that the longer the JW's hold on and be faithful, the more they prove to Jehovah their loyalty. I also thought they said the reason why people's health at the kingdom hall is so bad (it was really bad in my congregation) and the reason why everyone is so depressed and struggling is because Satan is persecuting Jehovah's true people, and this was a sign of that. So then I thought about how the JW's say that Jehovah is a loving god and a merciful god. I disagree based on what his elders put me through, but that's a different story. I then based my question on the belief JW's have that God is merciful. And I wonder how can a merciful God continue this "test of loyalty". My family is broken apart. My siblings do not speak to each other. Some of my siblings do not speak to my parents. My parents do not call me or some of my siblings. It's all because of the Witnesses. It's all because of these stupid rules that do nothing but hurt so many people. I guess I just wonder if I could reason with my JW family by asking them why a merciful god is punishing them, when they have been nothing but loyal. Why hasn't the end come, if it is coming? It feels to me, based on their teachings and thought process, that they are being tested (I guess I should say tested instead of punished) by their God because of things that others (apostates) are doing. How is this just? How is this loving? How is this merciful? It's not. Have I lost everybody now? I may have even lost myself on this one. I was very excited when I first thought this up, but I'm glad I came here with it first because I can see it's not a foolproof argument. I just don't even know where to begin to slip snippets of real truth to my family, without scaring them away from me for saying apostate things. I feel the need to help them and give them a fighting chance to see the real truth of the truth, even if it is ultimately futile. I don't know if it is. I just feel the need to try and help. Thanks, all. Rachel
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  GoddessRachel

  And why would he continue to test people like my family, who is hurting because so many of their children and their friends' children are "leaving the truth." I guess I think the JW's feel like the broken shells of people that they are is somehow proof of being persecuted by Satan.

  Ecclesiastes 3:18 (New International Version)

  18 I also thought, As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.

  Hah, the real meaning of life is that everything is meaningless. And it says so right in the Bible! How do ya like that?
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  GoddessRachel

  Gopher:

  By "punish", do you mean let them suffer the loss of their loved ones to "Satan's wicked system", or do you merely mean extending the length of this old system?

  I meant punish, or test, by extending the length of this old sysetm.

  Is this reasoning something your JW family believes? I thought JW's taught that Jehovah has a fixed date in mind for Armageddon, and that by now Jesus already knows so that he can "gear up" for the great battle.

  Well, they contradict themselves on this point, Gopher. They keep setting dates, but they also use the scripture that nobody knows the day or the hour and use that to motivate people to keep doing the JW stuff day in and day out. "Paradise is the day after tomorrow." A phrase I've heard many an elder and CO use many a time.
  

  Actually this "test" is coming from the organization's policies about avoiding or even shunning family members who don't adhere to the Watchtower's current doctrines.

  I agree with you, Gopher, but from a JW's point of view, I am wondering what a JW thinks of this "test" and how they can comprehend it and still think Jehovah is loving and merciful. My argument is flawed; I see that now.
  

  Yes, it's a self-inflicted persecution complex. The farther away you get from the JW organization, the more clearly you see that their hurts are self-inflicted, and that people generally try to avoid them because they have a reputation for being narrow and exclusivist. Try to be a friend with a JW -- and you'll keep running into things they can't do because their religion prohibits it. The WTS has built an artificial wall around its followers to screen them off from normal interaction with other humans. Those inside the wall then cry about "persecution". Go figure.

  Thank you, Gopher, your post has really helped me upon further reflection of it.

  Rachel
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  VoidEater

  If Jehovah God is so merciful, why would He punish his people because of apostates?

  My thought process was that the end hasn't come because it is some kind of a test to see how faithful his people can be.

  The WTS doctrine does not say the end hasn't come because we are being tested; rather, they say the end hasn't come so that others may come into the "truth". The doctrinal time of testing will come after a 1,000 years of paradise following Armageddon, when Satan is unleashed upon the Earth "for a little while" to test us.

  This does not stop JWs from believing we are constantly being tested by Satan - it's just that this is not the reason for the delay. Just to be contrary and muddy the waters, though, they will also quote scripture that says we won't be tested beyond our ability to resist. So there you go - whatever tests you might experience, it must be that whatever your response it's the right one.

  I had posted a DOA thread that commented something like: Since people are flowing in and out of the "truth" all the time, it's rather arbitrary of Jehovah to pick any particular moment for Armegeddon. 5 minutes sooner, or later, and he will miss those just on the brink of coming in and destroy those that have just fallen away.

  This whole "desiring none be destroyed" explanation for the delay makes no sense, unless He is waiting for just the right moment when the people He *wants* to save are "in".
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  Gopher

  Rachel - on this point:

  I am wondering what a JW thinks of this "test" and how they can comprehend it and still think Jehovah is loving and merciful.

  As a JW, I would compartmentalize things. The sufferings are brought about by the evil world and how it allegedly misunderstands and mistreats God's true servants. The "goats" of the world are judged because they don't help Christ's "followers" (and they quote the end part of Matthew 25 to back that up).

  In their mind, Jehovah (and the organization) are never to blame for any of their problems, but only get credit for good things.
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  Chalam

  Hi GoddessRachel,
  "If Jehovah God is so merciful, why would He punish his people because of apostates?"
  
  I believe this
  
  Hebrews 10:28-30 (New International Version)
  
  28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[a] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[b]
  
  The WTO has trampled Jesus under foot with their doctrine to demote Him, deny the cross, stop people from being born again and participating in the new covenant. The biggest symbol of this is when the bread and wine gets passed round and no-one partakes.
  
  Matthew 26 (New International Version)
  26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
  27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
  
  So to sum up, heaven rejoices when people become JW apostates and believe His word at face value.
  
  All the best,
  Stephen
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  GoddessRachel

  Thanks, VoidEater, I get what you are saying.

  So I guess I was wondering if I could use my question to reason with my JW family. I guess more than that I personally cannot understand how they/JW's can believe a merciful god would let things continue on as they are, not in my reality, but in their stifling JW reality. They are the ones who have to live with cutting off their family everyday even though it hurts like hell because that is what their god wants. I understand this is really not what god wants but it is what the WTS says they have to do. They don't understand this. So I just wondered what my JW family would say if I would pose that question to them: HOW CAN YOU SAY JEHOVAH GOD IS MERCIFUL AFTER ALL THAT YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH?

  That's sure to close their ears though, isn't it?