One JW response to WT/UN

CatholicGuy

I've been able to maintain contact with a JW friend--even though I've been out of the Organization for over 20 years. I brought up the UN subject with him and got this interesting reply. My friend is an elder now and former Bethelite:

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Does it bother me that there could be some sort of affiliation with the UN? Not in the least. We have to have some sort of relationship with the governments that we live under even though we know that Jehovah will destroy them. I have friends who are not JW's and know that God will deal with all in perfect mercy and justice. We have to live peacefully within our communities that include other religions; we have to show tolerance to be tolerated by others. And what about Jehovah's judgements in the future? My view: that's His job, not mine. The problems with religions come when we try to rush those judgements somewhat (ex: our Islamic pals of late). I was sorry to here the brothers at Brooklyn reacted to questioning by withdrawing. The better responce would have been: MYOB. Oh well.

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A better response than the "library card" defense. I don't agree with it but it's a more honorable defense.

Any comments?

CatholicGuy

Just got one more response from the same elder:

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The WTBS relationship with the UN is no more "hypocritical" than the apostle Paul's citizenship with the Roman empire. When he was beaten he "appealed to Caesar". The same fellow that was killing his brothers. Was he being a hypocrite? Apparently not. He was, however, using the system to further the preaching of the good news. Is there anything wrong with the UN charter? No, it seems to further lofty ideals. Is there anything wrong with the Constitution of the U.S.? No, it's the basis for the freedoms we enjoy. Is it hypocritical to be a citizen of a country, enjoy it's benefits and still remain neutral as to political and military affairs? You be the judge, but the Bible says no. Is it hypocritical to be listed as an NGO with an organization that the Bible condemns to further the preaching of the good news around the world? If it were then JW's would have to operate "underground" in every country of the world, because all man-made governments will be destroyed by God eventually. We couldn't "register" or incorporate in any of them. There's no hypocrisy with the WTBS on this issue.

Here's the hypocrisy: this writer and those who are stirring this up are focusing on such a minor point that they ignore all the good being done by JW's and the good people who are with us. We're listed as an NGO with the UN. SO WHAT? Like I said in my last note: his intentions are suspect. Actually they're more than suspect: they're malicious, and therefore his information becomes questionable and not worthy of consideration. The old adage is true: don't believe everything you read.

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He's referring to the article by Stephen Bates. My friend also hinted that our relationship was at risk by my bringing up the subject. Guess I touched a nerve?

Thirdson

CatholicGuy,

You elder friend misses the point and his arguements don't fit.

The WTS chose to associate with the UN and either lied to the UN when it agreed to support the UN charter or lied since in making excuses. As for Paul, he didn't apply for Roman citizenship he inherited it. Most people are citizens by birth. JW immigrants have had problems becoming US citizens because of renouncing previous citizenship and swearing allegiance to USA. Being an associate of the UN is not necessary for the functioning of the WTS nor required for furthering the interests of God's kingdom if God is in charge. The WTS associated for reasons of political expediancy (my view) and the related pressing need tax breaks and money.

As for the UN charter if there is nothing wrong with it, why does the WTS denounce the UN? Surely, they should be supporting the UN as the interim and only means for peace and concord while awaiting God's Kingdom.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

CornerStone

The orgs HYPOCRISY exist because they know, THEY KNOW they would have ANYBODY disfellowshipped who publicly acknowledged their support of the United Nations and its charter!

I believe the borg masters have such hate, such contempt for the R&F. This is why they keep actions like their UN involvement a secret because they don't TRUST their flock to follow them.

This is true because in Jesus parable the sheep hear the true shepherds voice and follow him where ever he goes. They wont follow a strangers voice and will run from a stranger because they don't recognize the true shepherds voice.

In light of this the borg masters HAVE to use cunning and trickery to keep it's flock "following" them. A million and one rules, constantly changing doctrines disguised as "new light", and secretly associating with and "touching" the unclean thing (UN affiliation) while openly condeming others for doing the same.

They KNOW their hands are dirty from their worldly actions. They just keep betting on their many "good works" to get them into heaven.

Didn't they learn anything from the lesson of the Pharisees?

CornerStone

BoozeRunner

Ahhhhh..hypocrisy is the calling card of the WBTS. The UN functions in many capacities, one of them being a Peace-Keeping force using military action if necessary.
Imagine this scenario-A hostile nation threatens the freedoms of the US by attempting to conquer it. A loyal JW joins he military in order to help save lives AND to preserve JW freedom of religion. He WILL be DA'd according to JW principles simply for joining th military.
See my point?

Boozy

Pubsinger

It seems to me that JWs who reply as above or with the "Library Ticket" response have made a completely incorrect interpretation by equating the UN with "Governmental Authorities" (Superior Authorities as in Romans)

The UN is not a Government. It is not part of the "Superior authorities placed by God".

It is a club. With its own "association rules". Association with it is purely a matter of choice.

If it were as evil as they believe, no amount of resources (even literary) would justify their association. They wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

To attempt to put the UN in the same bracket as Governments is simply not possible from their standpoint.

And perhaps Catholicguy could ask his friend exactly what WOULD constitute an immoral liason with the "Image of the Beast" when only a Government can "Join" the UN, whereas all the other NGOs, some of which are organisations with religious connections, can only "associate" in the same manner as the WTBTS.

Pathofthorns

I personally thought the Society would have used the reasoning these elders used. But they obviously figured after considering their options, that this line of reasoning fails under examination.

It is all about what was REQUIRED to have this affiliation, which was completely VOLUNTARY on the part of the WTBS. Pleading ignorance to this and using the library card excuse is lame, but is sufficient for their members and therefore their best option, however dishonest.

The one elder seems slightly disturbed at their withdrawing from the UN, and his further comments: "The better responce would have been: MYOB" show that he understands perfectly well how the Society operates (if only in his sub-conscious).

Also the ad hominem argument at the end:

Like I said in my last note: his intentions are suspect. Actually they're more than suspect: they're malicious, and therefore his information becomes questionable and not worthy of consideration. The old adage is true: don't believe everything you read.

I'm so damn tired of people ignoring the facts because they question motive and intent. Motive and intent are irrelevant to the facts. Too bad he doesn't follow his own advice to not believe everything he reads.

Path

GWEEDO

As I see it, being affiliated with the UN and agreeing to the UN charter is the equalivant of saluting the US flag and singing the nation anthem.

Throw that back at your elder friend!

COMF

they ignore all the good being done by JW's and the good people who are with us.

Understand that JW's are not God's chosen people and have lied blatantly about that for years. They have turned the term "truth" into a misshapen monster having no resemblance to its original meaning. They have given bad advice under threat and peer pressure for areas of life in which they have no knowledge, causing people to make choices which were damaging to themselves and their families. They have torn families apart over nothing more than a disagreement about a teaching which they later admitted was wrong. By intimidation and guilt they have caused the deaths of many over a fanatical misinterpretation of scripture. Their supposed "established kingdom" message has been abandoned and they now have no message at all other than "do what the governing body says, and don't question it or we'll destroy your life."

Given all this, could you please list any one good thing they have done for anyone who is not a member or studying?

COMF

hawkaw

I am really glad people on this board are picking up on the facts that the WTS had to VOLUNTARILY SOLICIT the UN and VOLUNTARILY AGREED TO SUPPORT the UN Charter thats says war is okay in certain situations and had to promote the UN's message.

WRT the first elder. He uses classic "TWS" (Theocratic War Strategy). He tells you the standard "we respect governments" line (ie. we pay taxes etc.). True but this is only a half truth. Of course what he fails to bring out is that Witnesses are forbidden to "support" government which includes the UN (eg. Oct 1/95 WT mag) or risk dissociation as found in Chapter 5 of the "Pay Attention to Your Flock" elder handbook published by the Watchtoer in 1991.

Minor point. Ask those people in Malawi about the minor 25 cent manditory party card. That was minor. What about those in jail right now for manditory military duty.

Keep throwing it back in their faces.

hawk

One JW response to WT/UN

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