Mysterious Ways

alienone

I think everyone is missing the point by trying to argue for and against the WTBTS using words and "logical argument". Clearly, God did not want the truth to be obvious and, scripturally, it is apparent that it would not be. Jesus said that only "a few" would find the truth in these last days. How could that be accurate if the truth were clear?

Yes, if God had chosen to, he could have made the truth obvious to everyone. So why didn't he? Well, he apparently doesn't want the truth to be obvious. So how are we expected to find it?

The ongoing "discussion" between present and ex JWs is no different from any other. For instance, a layman could be persuaded to believe in evolution, if he listened only to evolutionists; or in creation, if he listened only to creationists. But what is the layman to believe when he is presented with both sides of the argument? Well, ultimately, the layman will believe whatever he wants to believe. And this is precisely how a person's motives are determined today in relation to the Bible.

For those who want to live the life promised in the scriptures (under Christ in a paradise earth), there is sufficient evidence for them to make the leap of faith and become a JW. No one can argue with this point because there are millions of JWs.

Similarly, those who do not want this future for themselves (even subconsciously), will seek out and find reasons not to become a JW, or to leave the organization. No one can argue with this point, as many have indeed left and millions will never join in the first place.

Neither side can claim to be right. Neither side has "better evidence" in the objective sense. It's all purely in the eye of the beholder, just as evolutionists and creationists can provide mounds of conflicting (though equally persuasive) "proof" for their claims. But here, again, people believe what they want to believe; whichever argument best fits their existing world view.

If Jesus appeared in the sky tomorrow and identified the WTBTS as the true religion, who (of those who have left the organization) would not rush to join it again? And who of other religions would not rush to join? But would God want these ones? Of course not. Why? Because they would be joining for their own selfish reasons and not out of a pure motive.

This is why the truth is as it is today. It's why this forum exists! Reasons to believe; reasons not to believe. The world is like a giant candy shop and people, being people, will pick the sweets they want. This is what God knows and, indeed, is counting on.

pettygrudger

If everyone is God's children, then what about the ones that "take the leap of faith" and join a religion that isn't the "true" one? By your arguments, you insinuate that God will only choose those that choose the WTBTS. That isn't exactly a God of mercy or love now is it?

Your arguments have absolutely no merit. If Jesus came visibly tommorrow and said the WTBTS was "it", why would it be "selfish" for many to either go back or go in the first place? Ones who truly want to serve God (of which I'm sure there are more than just the measly 6 million "so called" faithful) aren't selfish if by some miracle they are shown the "true" faith.

Your arguments are nonsense and not of any "truth" I would call my own. My God's alot nicer than yours.

alienone

In the time of Noah, why didn't God make it clear to everyone that Noah was right to be doing what he was doing? Just before the flood, why didn't his voice boom across the land? Why was the ark sealed long BEFORE the rains came?

Then, just as now, if the truth were known, people would "board the ark" in order to save their own necks. It's all about motive.

If people choose the "wrong" religion, they obvioulsy do not want what the Bible offers, and therefore will not get it.

julien

Neither side can claim to be right. Neither side has "better evidence" in the objective sense. It's all purely in the eye of the beholder, just as evolutionists and creationists can provide mounds of conflicting (though equally persuasive) "proof" for their claims. But here, again, people believe what they want to believe; whichever argument best fits their existing world view.

Utter bullshit. By this reasoning it is impossible to correctly decide anything. I believe you have been confronted with uncomfortable facts or arguments against the WTBTS and so to prevent cognitive dissonance you discredit ALL facts and arguments on both sides, reducing everything to an a priori assertion that the WTBTS is true and God wants us to join it on faith alone.

alienone

Clearly he does not want us to join it for intellectual or academic reasons, as the intellectuals of this world are foolish in the eyes of God.

pettygrudger

How can you use the example of Noah's day for this argument? Do you really believe that he preached to everyone throughout the entire earth, and everyone truly had a "choice" as to whether they would follow this man?

The whole account of Noah is not accurate. The great flood might have happened, but I'm pretty sure the bible's leaving alot of stuff out. So, we do not know for sure what happened in "those" days. Human beings were given the gift of intelligence & logic (in most cases). Even the WTBTS by printing literature uses "common sense" themes w/in to promote their philosophy on religion. The WTBTS uses other religions mistakes, opinions & philosophies on the bible regularly to "disprove" what they have to say. And the same thing happens in reverse towards the JW's. What they "say" is the "truth" is disputed over and over again by bible scholars, even the ones that helped get the JW's where they are today. So, you are not special, sorry to say. You are not "chosen", sorry to say. In fact, the simple truth is you follow a religion that has placed itself OVER anyone truly seeking God, and therefore will be punished right along with the rest of "false religion".

Your only correct point, IMHO, is that only God knows who his TRUE followers are. I happen to believe that he will find them out of all nations, tribes, tongues and faiths. Its what is in the heart that matters - right? Only God can see that alienone.

Oh, and another thing, the bible says that his TRUE followers would be known for their love - not for what religion they happened to follow - by their love for one another & for their constantly seeking him and his father. The WTBTS is FAR from being infamous for "their love". I have yet to see a more hypocritical, judgemental, arrogant & haughty group of people in my entire life.

NameWithheld

Clearly he does not want us to join it for intellectual or academic reasons, as the intellectuals of this world are foolish in the eyes of God.

Ha hahhahahaaa! NOW THAT I can agree with. You certainly don't join the JWs for any intellectual reasons One reason the religion is full of wackos, weirdos, and less then educated people. (Before you go off on that I will say that not ALL JWs are the above!)

And your arguments are pretty much BS. God doesn't make it clear cause he a) doesn't want intellectuals, and b) he doesn't want people in JWs for selfish reasons. But yet the majority of JWs ARE in it for selfish reasons - they think they will get life everlasting. So which way is it? And if he doesn't want it clear then why are you knocking on peoples doors saying 'join us or die?'

4horsemen

alienone you wrote: "Clearly, God did not want the truth to be obvious..."

As Pilate asked of the Christ, "What is Truth?"

Here is Gods truth: "Serve me or die!" This has been his truth from the start. If he exists, if as the Creator of all that is, he has the has the right to this decree. Nothing I can do about. But for him to rig the game so I cant find out that truth with myriad religions, philosophies, delusions, and what not that pass as 'truth', well, then he is one sick, twisted, personage.

What possible justification can there be for a "serve me or die" mentality when generations of lives have been altered, ruined, ended because of these truths?

alienone

I am not a JW and never have been. However, the best arguments for becoming one are provided by those who are against it, in that such arguments completely ignore the broader picture.

4horsemen

My post got cut off. Continuing...

You are right about one thing though, when events like those of Sept 11 take place and there is an influx of inactive ones rushing back to the KH, who do they think they are fooling? But you know what, it's not so much "selfish" as it is fear that has been conditioned and instilled by an organization comprised of MEN. And who doesnt want to live? They just want to live on their own terms. Free from fear, guilt, feeling shame/unworthy, judged, duped, exploited. Did I leave any out?

As far as JW's NOT being selfish? Are you serious? I say it again. If Jehovah said to your face that your assignment for 1000 years was to make Death Valley, (and not that 3 acre property overlooking the Pacific)into its share of Paradise, and instead of cornish game hens with the trimmings to eat, you should be content with "food and covering" ie beans and rice everyday, you dont think a majority of "loving brothers" wouldn't be grumbling?

Mysterious Ways

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