Q,
Cynical Hell? Well… I can accept some of that, in fact, I really like the term “Cynical Hell.” Thanks for sharing.
I am cynical and sarcastic at times but I don’t see it as being in anything like the concept of hell or all consuming negativity. Being cynical to a certain extent can actually be fairly therapeutic, helpful, and somewhat liberating. It helps to mentally blow off the stupidity and ineptness like we here in the USA have had to endure with our current political administration and the over saturated media coverage of Mindless Bimbo Worship.
I have read enough of your posts over the last year or so to realize you too understand and have the intelligence to comprehend my term “Oblivious Utopia.” If not, just pull up the U-tube video of Tom Cruise on the Opera show or his interview with Matt Lauer of the Today show. That is “Oblivious Utopia” and the final inspiration for me coming up with the term. Thanks Tom! It is a state of mind where people shut off all outside influences and comprehension. They comfortably live in a protected mental state of oblivion in relation to their surroundings without concern or acknowledgement of anything or anybody outside of that perceived utopian existence. Especially those with a contradictory thought, warning or opinion that might disrupt their state of utopia. It’s kind of like the little picture of the three monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil.
I do not see you in that state at all. You have come out of that kind of existence and have asked questions, you now seem to be living in a constant state of doubt and confusion because you are not completely comfortable with the answers you have looked for and eventually found. I do see Susan in that mental state. So, I made my comments about her. I am not picking on her, I am just speaking about my observations of her comments on this board. I have read her comments on other threads where she adamantly states she is, and will always be a Mormon. So why the presence and posts on this exJW board? What is her objective? When both you and Susan went after Former Mormon on his introduction to the board thread it peaked my interest. Then this thread came up and I (even though he seems to be more than capable of handling himself) made my comments.
I appreciate and completely understand your thoughts about why you do not post on EX-Mormon boards. There are some here and on other Ex JW boards that have fallen into a very narrow perspective of “all” JW’s being the same brain dead followers, I use to talk and think the same way so I absolutely understand where they are summing from. Now I try to separate the difference between the JW people and their totalitarian ruling class of the corporate Watchtower executives.
I suspect you might be trying to do something similar in relation to the LDS corporation. But then again....I may be wrong.
Unfortunately you can not effect any changes in that regard by just posting here in the comfort and seclusion of a “like environment”. And, neither Susan, you, or any other visiting Mormon will escape hearing my thoughts and comments anymore when you do what you say you are trying to avoid by not posting on an EX Mormon board but attacking Ex Mormons who come here to give their opinions (whether it is a bit one sided or not).
Personally I would believe what any EX-Mormon would say about the inner workings of the LDS church before I would believe a die hard Mormon. And I don’t mean anything about the Book of Mormon dogma. I don’t care to argue about Mormon Dogma any more than I care to argue about JW dogma or if the original Silver Surfer is better or more powerful than the Newer Silver Surfer. It’s all bullshit to me.
And, as much as you may or may no longer feel a kinship toward me or any other exJW or ExMormon, I have always felt that way toward almost every ex-Mormon, ex-Scientologist, Ex-Moonie, Ex-Adventist, and Ex-Christian Scientist that I have ever had the pleasure to meet. Especially EX-Mormons. That includes You, as well as Former Mormon. The kinship is in the “Ex”. We are all bonded together with the stickiness of our Ex-cult-like religion’s bullshit. When and if you finally consider yourself an EX you will then have the freedom within your own mind to truly feel that kinship.
Take care,
Dave
PS, I don’t doubt for a second that you are actually lovely. I just have a hard time saying it. You damn English sure have a strange way with the English language.
resident mormons: "Big Love"?
by inkling 40 Replies latest jw friends
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seven006
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SusanHere
Wow! I haven't been able to post for a week due to sudden onset vestibular dysfunction (inner ear) causing dizziness and the absolute inability to read tiny little computer words without experiencing nausea (not unlike that caused by reading the intentionally unpleasant postings of certain members of this board).
So, rather than dodging anything or anyone, I have simply been unable to respond until now.
Qcmbr, thank you for your most able and on the mark comments. As always, you expressed yourself skillfully. Too bad it was lost on those who needed most to hear it, as usual.
DoubleEdge, so nice to see you again! Your story was true -- two of my sons while on missions were asked if people could feel the horns on their heads! LOL
Isn't it strange how a thread about a tv series could prompt such strongly worded postings by several in here who want to vent against Mormons in general, and Qcmbr and myself in particular.
I didn't start this thread. I wasn't trying to convert anybody to Mormonism by my comments, nor did I even share any deep, dark doctrinal secrets. And yet what little I said was enough to encite such a vehement tirade! My, my, my! Talk about people needing to take a chill pill.
Seven006, please don't quit your day job, as you won't make a living sketching people's characters. A psychologist you are not. I have no doubts about my religion, no questions that I am struggling with, no demons in my closet that I don't dare let loose, and no desire whatsoever to post on or even visit any of the ex-momon sites. One visit was enough know what is there, and my revulsion for the distortions I read coupled with my pity for those who wrote such posts guaranteed that there will be no repeat visits.
I say freely and openly that I am LDS now and forever because that is, quite simply, what I am. I have no intention of ever changing it. I was an adult when I was baptized LDS, after a very long search, and after reading every bit of anti-LDS literature I could find, and taking the time to debunk every bit of it, one by one. So you see, I know it can be done. Easily. Because of that early effort, I have no fear of what anyone says against the Church. If anyone cares to draw conclusions beyond that, feel free, but you will most likely be wrong.
OldFlame, I know better than to discuss doctrine with you. I know you don't want to hear anything I have to say, so your asking isn't really with any sincerity. Your journey is far different from mine. I wish you well.
Must there always be such drama on this board? Get real, people -- we were discussing a silly tv show!
SusanHere
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FormerMormon
Q,
OK so you were finally specific enough to say that it was ME you were referencing. Besides this, I still haven't heard any specifics. You mentioned preparatory vs fullness of gospel...OK... when did this or how does this tie into any of our conversations SPECIFICALLY? Where are my "holes". I can show you MANY in the LDS church.
SusanHere,
I am soo glad you found the answers because my Stake President still doesn't have any for me. You have reviewed the anti-lds material and have the solutions. Two quick questions:
1. Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young. Born 1821. Look her up on the MORMON website http://www.familysearch.org/.
You will see she was married to Jacobs and Smith concurrently AND Jacobs and Young concurrently. This is troubling LDS history. The Morg lies about it's troubling history. At
http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,5511-1,00.html it says Henry (her first hubby) died and left her a widow. At http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=ba0bca99be2ab010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1 it says she AND the BOYSWERE DESERTED by Henry. Which is it? These are LDS sites remember. Familysearch shows Brigham married her when she was 8 months pregnant--before her second son was born. How could Henry both die AND desert his kids when the LDS record clearly shows Bring 'em Young stole his wife before Henry could have abandoned his son s, one of which hadn't been born yet? 2. How can I believe in the prophetic discernment of the "prophets", when Apostle Albert Carrington had a 14 year affair with multiple women (not his wives) He was exed in 1885 after a husband of a woman he "had" kept begging the first presidency to do something FOR TEN YEARS before Albert was finally exed. How can I believe in the prophetic discernment of the "prophets", when Apostle Richard R Lyman had an 18 year affair with another woman from 1925 until 1943 when it was finally detected and he was exed. I thought prophets were led by inspiration. I thought immorality was next to murder in seriousness. Can such unworthy men be apostles? Google them Albert Carrington and Richard R. Lyman. Why am I here? 1. I can't stand to see lies by cult members apparently trying to move some sheep. 2. If I can show my wife the cult techniques/history/stories of the JW cult, then hopefully she will see the same cultish techniques in the mormon church. 3. I feel a kinship with other recovering cult victims. It feels strangely healing to be friendly with my former mission adversaries. I feel like the opposing WW1 forces who crossed the line and shared Christmas. 4. When I see the dumb ass things JW's were taught and believed, I don't feel so bad about the ridiculous dumb ass things I believed.
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seven006
Susan,
Thanks for the smart-ass attempt at humor and career advice. It was lame but I appreciate the effort.
I have read some of your posts from the past and all I have to say is, find a new catchall concept besides “it’s all apostate lies” to the mounting archeological and DNA evidence showing the Book of Mormon to be utter stupidity and made up imaginative pseudo historical bullshit.
I don’t know who is the better fiction writer, Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbard. They both are cut from the same piece of sheep’s clothing.
We hear the “ It’s all a bunch of apostate lies” instant oatmeal quick and dirty answer to everything a little too much from our own close-minded apologists. We don’t need it from you disguised as an alternative religions helpful Mormon information central.
Don’t quit your delusions.
Dave -
Quandry
Slam the poster / their belief / throw around a few tough guy words. In particular start defining what the poster's ulterior motives are. Don't bother about alternatives - just make it up as you go and dare anyone to contradict you.
I just don't get it---why do current Mormons come here to read about all the dirt on JWs, and even admit their religion has some rather unsavory history, but they get their "Jesus jammies" in a wad when a poster here brings up some of their whackier beliefs???????
From everything I've read about Mormons, and it has been extensive, including some of the writings that ones who are studying to become Mormons must read, it seems formermormon is very accurate in his information. He always backs things up with the Mormon "scripture" when necessary.
Way to go, formermormon!!!
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zeroday
Being a JW for 28 years and out for 3 I find LDS faith quite interesting...I have been to a number of exmormon db's and pro mormon db's the ex crowd is much like the exjw crowd exposing the obvious and challenging believers to explain the unexplainable the pro mormon db I participated in degraded to name calling and insults when questions could not be answered...the similarities between LDS and JW are scarry Susanhere is a perfect claims to have read all antiLDS material and debunked is beyond reason...no archeological evidence for the BOM not so much as an "arrowshead" of evidence but susanhere debunked it...Joseph Smith marrying women that were ALREADY MARRIED...Gods prophet??? What a god where can I get one of those...Brigham Young owned a whiskey distillary in UTAH and encouraged LDS to grow their own tobacco to keep the money in Utah and on on on...astounding...
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Qcmbr
zeroday -
no arrowshead of evidence? If you mean a city with a sign saying enjoy your stay in Zarahemla - I'll concede - we haven't found that yet.
How about:
The legends of the white, bearded God who gave culture and instruction to the indigenous peoples in the Americas?
No mention of coins in the BOM - no coinage found so far. Consistency with BOM stories with what could have happened - if you make something up about an ancient culture its far harder to make something that isn't immediately provably wrong by accidentaly inserting modern day borrowings.
Use of concrete.
Deforestation of the north.
Arrowheads found in bucket loads in upstate New York.
New cultures appearing seemingly ready formed in some locations.
At least one tribal myth talking of brothers coming from across the sea to start their civilization.
Descriptions of Jaredite culture and warfare very similar to ancient asiatic sources.
Many ancient records found written on metal plates - there is precedent.
Chiastic forms in the BOM style.
There is plenty of evidence but I suspect you know how to find it.
Quandry - it may seem that FM is very accurate and backs his stuff up but let me place some perspective on what he is saying:
1/ The LDS church canon contains 4 books plus to a much lesser extent various writings of church authorities. When he finds fault it is not with the 99% but the 1% but FM rarely if ever tells the full story - there is no context nor explanatory description. Here's an example of what I mean as I explain Americans as FM describes the LDS church - Americans are all stupid because they are led by a stupid man- Bush Quotes:
There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee...that says, fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me...you can't get fooled again. [9/17/2002]
I was proud the other day when both Republicans and Democrats stood with me in the Rose Garden to announce their support for a clear statement of purpose, "You disarm, or we will." [10/5/2002]
Do my quotes make Americans stupid or negate everything else that Americans do that makes them world beaters in so many areas? Of course not.
2/ When FM tells us 'secret' Mormon stuff and dishes the so called dirt he writes in a florid style (when he's not cutting and pasting some other sensationalist's rant) - do not be fooled - emotional writing is rabble rousing but rarely logic inducing. If what FM said was so critical the generally very highly educated LDS would walk out - there is a reason why the LDS have a university and the JWs don't - ask yourself why. In a similar vein ask why on earth Christians trust Jesus who called Judas when he was clearly working for the opposition - its because there is context to the situation that very adequately explains it.
3/ I have little desire to cut and paste in response to FM or spend hours doing the research and typing it up merely to refute one bitter evangelizer. At the last count I wasn't aware that anyone here was in danger of leaning towards LDS thinking so getting into a debate on each and every point seems an exercise with very low return - in fact it would merely be playing into FMs hands who would love nothing better than to get some wind behind his sails to post as much as he can on his fav topic. As it is he is stuck waiting for posts about Big Love before he can throw some more in. I content myself with a fairly simple rebuff of one or more obvious slants of his and hope beyond hope that people here can see through him enough to value his copied words for the pastiche of poo they often are. Still some people seem to enjoy the wallow and keep praising him.
As a final point Quandry - I don't need you to 'get it' - I know some people would love to see the back of 'us' (it chaffs my ass that I let you objectify me!!) but I do believe in diversity and if you read my posts and get to know me a little I think you'll find that I try to be a contributor and not a troll. I even give the US members another chance to enjoy the utter witty brilliance of British humor every now and then.
FM - let me cut to the chase and tell you why you milk my anger udders. There are real reasons to leave the LDS (or any) faith - reasons like - I'm not happy there, I hate the meetings, paying 10% of my money blows chunks, I have no friends, I miss drinking and so on... If you can find a happier life elsewhere then all power to you - those are real reasons for leaving and ones that I can listen to - they let me know that you are real and know why you are acting. When you drag up fairly obscure historical 'discrepancies' and risk your marriage and some of your social life (assuming you enjoy and spend time with other members) on a principle you start to look like someone who leaves for an ulterior secret motive. Let me explain - I have studied those who have left the LDS faith for years - not via the internet but via face to face heart to heart discussions - those who left for 'real' reasons (it doesn't make me happy anymore type reasons) didn't spend time justifying or trying to convert me. Those who had done something wrong (adultery, gambling, drinking and smoking) more often than not covered their action and justified it by reference to 'discrepancies' and blasted me with their research. That is my honest experience of those who leave. You see I am aware of all the discrepancies you love to quote - just as every christian is aware that some of the accepted basis of their faith (like specific interpretations of the bible) are logically on dodgy ground - they just find real reasons to stay (I'm happier than I was before.)
In short - while I am willing to concede - because I don't know you - that there is purely an ideological motivation for leaving the LDS in your case my experience suggests something else especially since your current research shows a zeal I suspect you didn't have while at church and your choices of source material focus on some incredibally small historical and theological areas that seem to ignore the vast body of LDS positive and utterly beneficial experience, thought and writings. I have said harsh things here about you and insinuated things that - in your case - I have only your writing style as evidence of. I apologise because that is never the way to operate in public however, this gives you an opportunity to put me straight in front of the world but let's you know why I'm so quick to fight you. I am willing to find agreement with you on many points of LDS theological or more importantly practical failure but we can't do this by the cut and past from rant site x method or by carrying an extra hidden agenda (in my case I am not here to get more sheep - you'd all know if I was by my own admission I'm pretty good at it plus I'd have been booted by now I suspect)
yowsers - that's a lot of my chest. -
barry
The book of mormon has no supporting evidence of Archaeology or Geography according to Thomas Murphy Archaeologist and former mormon.
The great battle at komora hill has no evidence according to archaeologists of metal weapons and with 200,000 supposidly killed in that area there is no bones either.A similar battle at the same time found in the bible has ample evidence thousands of steel arrowheads.
According to geography the descriptions in the book of mormon is certainly of a geography that doesnt exist on earth but if we were to travel in the middle east the geography fits and the cities are still called by the same name.
According to Archaeologists there work doesnt lie and cities cant be hidden because they leave just too much evidence the cities found in the bible can all be visited but not one of the 38 cities mentioned in the book of mormon can be visited
There are 5500 manuscripts can be sighted for the bible but we only have dissappearing golden plates for the book of mormon.
The american indians are asian people and dna has proven no evidence of any other mixing of the race older then about 300 years ago. THe american indians are not jewish they are asian.
Susan here as you have all the answers please share . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1mFdO1wB08
I dont have any malace toward mormons, when I was younger in our house and living with my parents we had a recording of the mormon tabernacle choir and it was one of our favorite records and at that time we notices one of the hymns had a refference to jesus going ten thousand miles to america.None of us at that time knew what it was all about.
What is required is the mormon church shoud tell the truth about their lie and stop deceiving people.
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zeroday
There is plenty of evidence but I suspect you know how to find it.
And why is that not ONE nonLDS archeologist accepts any claim of the LDS church of evidence of BOM geography...Even LDS archeologists have admitted to the same...
"The evidence supporting the geographical views of the Norman and Sorenson, under the exacting tests laid down by the text of the Book of Mormon, is indeed very meagre. We have the cylinder seal from Chiapa de Corzo, the cylinder seal from Tlatilco and the toys with wheels. That's about all. This paucity of specific support presents, at least to me, a dilemma. One way out of the dilemma is to say that everything was scrambled and lost because of the upheavels described in lll Nephi for the time of the crucifixion. In my opinion, this is not satisfactory escape hatch. Virtually all of the data in the Book of Mormon must be credited to Mormon and his abridgment of the "larger plates." He and Moronis writing in the 4th century (over 300 years after the crucifixion), were responsible for the last 400 pages of the text. And it is in those 400 pages that most of the geographical data appear. Mormon doesn't say that his references to geography useless and hopeless. Further innumerable excavations made in the area we are dealing with, and inthe time span (3000bc-400ad) with which we are involved, reveal great undisturbed architectual structures, extensive relatively undisturbed ancient strata etc. right through the time of the crucifixion. I don't have the answer to the dilima...I just call it up. I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book of Mormon geography. I for one would be happy if Dee were wrong." Thomas Stuart Ferguson March 12, 1975
Nothing has changed from then to now. We have ancient ruins from cultures 1000's of years old, Romans, Egyptians, Greeks etc that has left perfectly preserved remains to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they existed, for the size of the civilizations that the BOM claims existed there would have to exist the same ruins and remains...there are none...
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barry
Just one artifact may get us non beleivers thinking come on mormons.