I need some help on the Holy Trinity. My husband is studying with the Witnesses (he's not one of THEM yet), and is totally buying into the idea that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all separate, not (as I've tried to explain) separate, but also one in the Trinity. I have pointed out the scriptures in John that reference God as the Word, and then Jesus as the Word later. It's not enough for him. Any help on this one??
in defense of the Holy Trinity
by potentialJWconvertswife 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BurnTheShips
I think some things require a spiritual experience to convince us. This was partly the case with me, but I still resisted the notion. For me, this chapter from C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity was the final bit that made me believe:
http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mc23.htm
http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mc24.htm
Burn
Edited to add the previous chapter.
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AlmostAtheist
This is a particularly difficult one, as there are scriptures to support either position. It's a question of which ones you "read" and which ones you "explain". The long and short of it is, I personally think the trinity isn't a game you can win. You may not lose, but you can't win.
Is it possible to not work that one over too hard, and instead work on something that's more provable? The blood issue, maybe?
For some, seeing that the Watchtower intentionally misleads people into accepting their position is enough. Their blue book, "Life, How Did it Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation" is filled with out-of-context quotes that amount to lies on the part of the Watchtower.
Good luck!
Dave
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Gopher
Hi potential...wife,
I hope Almost Atheist's comments are helpful. I agree. As a JW, I would have never been convinced about the Trinity. (Matter of fact, I still have trouble with the Trinity concept...just my opinion.)
The lack of love in the disfellowshipping arrangement is one thing I wish I knew before getting baptized in 1977. Of course, they didn't treat ex-members as harshly then as they do now (in general). If more people knew that they could lose all their friendships and be shunned just because they changed their mind after being baptized, maybe more would take a second look at the commitment that baptism involves.
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Honesty
Instead of attempting to dispute the one major apostate doctrine of the Wathctower Society...
Let him watch this video and then ask him to research the Watchtower Society's literature with you:
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potentialJWconvertswife
I can see how it may be better to focus on other doubts than the Trinity. Hubby says he always had a problem understanding the Trinity. I of course said the old line about how men are not meant to understand all of God's ways. That didn't fly at all! I will definitely work the blood angle, as he's already said he has problems with it, Thanks Almost. Gopher- I would have thought the DF'ing would be a major stopping point for anyone not in the JW's. I mean, it's God's job to judge, not man's: Judge not lest ye be judged. The thing is, he knows all about it, as the guy he's studying with has a family member who is close to being DF'd because they aren't living according to the JW rules. Go figure!
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JeffT
Have him read "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Very small but powerful book.
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Open mind
I'm with AA on this one.
IMO, the Bible isn't very clear on the Trinity one way or the other. That was one of many little things that woke me up about the Bible not necessarily being the inerrant Word of God. If it was SOOO important, then why didn't God make it a little bit more clear in his word? As a door-pounding JW pioneer, I had plenty of Fundamentalists warn me that an eternity in God's Weber BBQ awaited me if I didn't see the "light" about the trinity. And, of course, the uber-zealot JWs will say that God's gonna whack those Trinity-believers at Armageddon because his Son's getting just a little too much limelight.
This is a side point, but it always used to irritate me that fellow JWs would RARELY admit that the "other side" had a good point with a particular Bible verse. I always viewed it as a debate and hoped the "other side" didn't know where their "good ammo" was.
OM
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Zico
A focus on the deity of the Christ might be more beneficial than a focus on the Trinity, so you don't bring the Holy Spirit into it, but instead critique Jesus being the same as Michael the Archangel, and show how the Apostles and early Christians saw Jesus as God, and as more than an angel (John 20:28, and Hebrews 1 might help) You could also show examples of Christians in the bible, such as Stephen (Acts 7) and examples in Revelation, where the disciples prayed to Jesus. This is important because Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to talk to Jesus and have a relationship with him.
It might be easier to discuss other subjects though. There really are lots of angles, and I'm sure you'll find a lot of good advice here. Another one I can think of:
Luke 21:8 -
"He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them."
The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that 'The due time has approached' (Armageddon) Thus, to follow Jesus' words here, means not to follow groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses!
It really is that simple.
Just find an angle that works for you. Good luck! -
seek2find
I agree with zico focus on Christ Deity instead of the Trinity. A few scriptures you could use are Isa. 43:11 "I-I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior." 2 Peter 2:1 "....by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ" (Note) The "The" in Brackets wasn't in the Greek text. Also ask him why the NWT uses the word "other" 4 times in Col 1:15-17 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, The bracketed words weren't in the original Greek here either. seek2find