An open letter to Snowbird (and friends)

by inkling 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Eliveleth

  I am writing as a friend of Snowbird's. She and I probably have differences of opinion regarding God and the Bible, but the unity we have as Christians is not conformity but love.

  There are lots of things in the Bible, that I do not understand. Most of it has to do with the history of the Israelites. Let us say (for the sake of argument) that a lot of the Bible is history, poems and songs written by man. If we take that out of the Bible what are we left with? We have the 10 commandments, which with the exception of Honoring God, not worshipping idols and keeping the sabbath are basically the laws written in the constitutions and laws of most countries of the world. We have prophecies, many of which are confirmed by history and we have the principles left by Jesus. Even if you say that he was not God or the Son of God, the things that he did and said are held up by even men who are not Christian as good. Ghandi for one, the Koran for another.

  What basically, besides the creation story, Adam and Eve and Satan do you think are not written with the good of mankind at heart? (That is taking the history and Psalms out) What if the Bible is a man-made book? Are there things we can benefit from in it?

  Most Christians do not worship the Bible but consider the things written in it beneficial for their lives.(some hold it sacred) All the basic principles of life, I learned from the Bible. Do you think the world would be a better place if the Bible had not been written?

  I personally believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe what is written in it has inspired men down through the ages, to do great things. The people who first came to this land, America, did so to escape religious intolerance and to gain freedom to follow the Bible and worship God.

  I believe the Bible has been used wrongly down through time by religious people who wanted to oppress their fellow man and used passages taken out of context to do so. The Bible has been used as an excuse to murder people, but it has been man who has misused it to the detriment of mankind and the dishonoring of God.

  I believe the principles and laws written in the Bible are to lead man to do what is good for his own body and for his relationship with his fellow man. What do you see in the Bible that is harmful?

  For many years, I took someone else's word for what God said in the Bible. Someone else interpreted it for me. I have seen how Bible verses can be taken out of context and twisted to fit the doctrine of a religious organization. I do not take man's word as to what the Bible says anymore. But I do ask that God, by His Holy Spirit guide me in understanding what I read.

  I understand why many do not believe in God or the Bible. I respect each person's belief and would never try to change them. Why? Because I know that nothing I, or anyone else, can say will change another person's ideas. Each one has to be convinced in their own mind by circumstances in their own lives. They say there are no atheists in foxholes (or at least they used to, times change) and I hear from some that at the end of their lives many atheists turn to God. I think that things happen in our lives that change us, not people's opinions.

  What if I believe in God, the Bible and not evolution? How does this alter my life? Am I harmed by believing this?

  I believe in science, I do not reject the advances made by mankind and do not see it as opposed to my belief in the Bible. But there are certain things that scientists teach that have not been proven to me. There are assumptions that certain ones have pointed out to me that they see as proof for evolution that I do not see. It has been pointed out to me also that evolution does not explain the origin of life. What does?

  You, yourself said it so well:

  It is no mystery to me why many are convinced by a basic "Argument

  From Design". The universe just "feels" designed to it's very core.

  It its almost like (for whatever reason) we are hardwired to observe

  our environment and implicate design. Evolution is (by admission of

  it's strongest advocates) a startlingly counterintuitive idea.

  The Bible gives me the explanation: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" If he did it in six literal days or broke it up into thousands or millions of years does not change anything in my mind. Yes, it is a matter of faith. So is evolution, as Prof. Richard Dawkins says. It has to be, neither of us has any hard proof.

  Love and hugs,

  Velta
• 

  Sad emo

  I'm snowbirds friend and sister in Christ too

  Like Eliveleth, I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God rather than the literal word of God - His word (truth) is contained within and behind the written words if you like - that's what makes it for many of us, more than just another book.

  At the same time, I still respect the beliefs of those who hold to the literal interpretation of the Bible. I started out as a 'literalist' and I've since gained my knowledge through extensive theological studies. When my literalist beliefs were first challenged, I went crazy and point blank refused to accept it (like what the hell is this Gilgamesh epic etc etc!!), it took time and gentle coaxing before I'd even look at Biblical criticism again, but now I'm ok with it and I don't see any conflict between it and science - they are simply looking at the same universe from different angles.

  To use your analogy of the child growing in understanding, this is how all Christians are, we're at different stages of the journey - but what's important is where we're all headed!! If we're content to believe what we believe at any moment in time and we're better people for it, why try and remove or destroy that faith, we grow and move on as and when we're ready. What's the point of ridiculing it? I'd even say that in some cases certainly, people ridicule other peoples beliefs out of an element of anger or fear - it's bullying, "you don't think/act like us therefore we'll give you a label - stupid, ignorant fool" (as far as I can figure, this isn't what you're doing, Inkling)

  Which is the better course to take when teaching a child that Santa doesn't exist? Call them stupid for believing he does? Ridiculing them? Or trying to understand from their perspective first and gently reasoning with them?

  Food for thought...
• 

  snowbird

  A hearty good morning to all.

  First of all, thanks to Eliveleth and Sad Emo for their kinds words. And again to Gopher for his wise words of reason and respect.

  Inkling you asked:

  But I ask you:

  Is there any conceivable experience (even in theory) that would convince
  you the Bible is NOT the word of God?

  Secondly, do you feel that any of the other Holy Books contain any truth
  from God? If not, how do you know? Have you read them? How do you feel the
  Bible differs from them?

  No, there is nothing as of now that would convince me that the Bible is NOT the word of God. Who is to say what may happen in the future?

  Whenever some new idea is presented to me, I always question the person's motive for presenting such, for instance, why it is of such importance to that person that I accept his/her idea. I think that is a good rule for anyone to follow.

  Your second question: Yes, I firmly believe there are other books that contain truths about God. I've read the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher. Some of the things recorded in them are quite fanciful and make you go hmmm .... but , on the whole, those two especially round our some of the narratives found in the Bible.

  I don't give much credence to the Gilgamesh Epic because it's obvious that it was written to counter the Bible's account of creation, the first humans, the Flood, etc. You mentioned the ridiculous things some ancient people believed; I submit that reading this work will give you a new understanding of ridiculous.

  Oh, I almost forgot the Code of Hammurabi. This one comes pretty close to mirroring the Biblical laws given to the nation of Israel, but I'm curious as to why the Sumerian people didn't show the same level of progress in human relations as did the Israelites. After all, most Western nations have laws that are almost carbon copies of the Mosaic Law, but how many of those nations reference the Code of Hammurabi?

  In my opinion the Bible differs from those books in that it is written with all mankind in mind. We can see from reading the Bible that the purpose of man's being put on earth was to populate it and control it. We were to live as brothers and sisters in peace and harmony. I don't see anything difficult about that concept.

  However, this earth is anything but a peaceful and harmonious place. The Bible tells why and also tells how WE are going to have to change. No other book I've read comes close to addressing these issues or pinpointing those who are directly responsible for our degeneracy.

  There is so much more to my story - and to everyone else's - but each of us has to choose our own path. I've chosen the path of faith in the Bible and the God of the Bible. There is a lot I don't know or understand, yet, I still believe.

  Sylvia
• 

  funkyderek

  snowbird:

  No, there is nothing as of now that would convince me that the Bible is NOT the word of God. Who is to say what may happen in the future?

  Then is there anything that would convince you that not all parts of the Bible are literally true? Please note that that's quite a different thing.

  Whenever some new idea is presented to me, I always question the person's motive for presenting such, for instance, why it is of such importance to that person that I accept his/her idea. I think that is a good rule for anyone to follow.

  It's certainly a question worth asking. People often have ulterior motives. But ultimately it doesn't matter as long as you follow another, dare I say superior, rule: comparing what you're told against the evidence. Evidence doesn't have motives.

  For what it's worth, my motive in pointing out flaws in other people's beliefs is primarily to help them correct their view of the world so they don't waste their time - or worse, endanger themselves or others - by believing falsehoods. Also, debating these contentious issues requires constant reevaluation of my own beliefs so that in the event that I am wrong (it has happened!) I can adjust my beliefs. Of course even if I'm just an arrogant S.O.B. who likes to annoy Christians, it doesn't affect the veracity of my statements.

  Your second question: Yes, I firmly believe there are other books that contain truths about God. I've read the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher. Some of the things recorded in them are quite fanciful and make you go hmmm .... but , on the whole, those two especially round our some of the narratives found in the Bible.

  Is it possible that some of the things recorded in "canonical" books of the Bible are also fanciful, even if others are definitely true? Is there any way of knowing?

  I don't give much credence to the Gilgamesh Epic because it's obvious that it was written to counter the Bible's account of creation, the first humans, the Flood, etc.

  The problem with that is that the Gilgamesh Epic predates the Noachian story by close to a millennium. The similarities they share do suggest that one was based on the other, but the most reasonable explanation is that it is the later story that is the copy.

  You mentioned the ridiculous things some ancient people believed; I submit that reading this work will give you a new understanding of ridiculous.

  I wonder if they were ever truly believed, or if people even then understood that they were fables written for entertainment and education. It would certainly be ridiculous for an educated person in the 21st century to believe that the Gilgamesh epic is literally true. Of course, the Noachian tale also stretches plausibility (to say the least). It is the story of a 500 year old man who spent 100 years building a 400-foot long wooden boat (far larger than any seaworthy wooden vessel built in modern times) into which he put two (or seven) members of every species or animal (or "kind" if you accept the ultra-rapid evolution necessary to reduce the numbers towards feasibility), and in which he, his family and all those animals spent a year floating around while everything and everybody outside was destroyed. Even if this account wasn't contradicted by a vast amount of geological, genetic, archaeological and historical evidence (e.g. according to biblical chronology it happened during the height of the Sumerian and Egyptian civilisations), it's so absurd - and so obviously a myth - that I'm embarrassed that I ever believed it.

  In my opinion the Bible differs from those books in that it is written with all mankind in mind.

  A lot of it is quite clearly and explicitly written with only the Jews in mind.

  We can see from reading the Bible that the purpose of man's being put on earth was to populate it and control it. We were to live as brothers and sisters in peace and harmony. I don't see anything difficult about that concept.

  No, it's not a bad concept at all. In fact, it's the sort of concept that somebody creating a myth explaining the way the world is might come up with.

  However, this earth is anything but a peaceful and harmonious place. The Bible tells why and also tells how WE are going to have to change. No other book I've read comes close to addressing these issues or pinpointing those who are directly responsible for our degeneracy.

  Unfortunately, the answer the bible gives (that all human problems are caused by a talking snake and a bit of scrumping) bears no relation to reality at all. And the parts that tell us to be nice to other people are countered by the parts that require the violent death of dissenters and all sorts of absurd rituals and sacrifices to placate an angry deity.

  I believe that the problems faced by humanity have real, natural causes and require intelligent, innovative solutions. There are no invisible enemies sabotaging our efforts, nor are there any invisible friends to help us on our way.

  There is so much more to my story - and to everyone else's - but each of us has to choose our own path. I've chosen the path of faith in the Bible and the God of the Bible. There is a lot I don't know or understand, yet, I still believe.

  I've never been able to understand how someone can choose what to believe, nor indeed to believe what they don't understand. Doesn't the constant cognitive dissonance make your head hurt?
• 

  snowbird

  I've never been able to understand how someone can choose what to believe, nor indeed to believe what they don't understand. Doesn't the constant cognitive dissonance make your head hurt?

  Life is all about choices, isn't it? I don't understand how one group of people can feel superior to another, but I believe it.

  No, what makes my head - and heart - hurt is our laying the blame at God's feet for own stupid ideas and mistakes.

  For what it's worth, my motive in pointing out flaws in other people's beliefs is primarily to help them correct their view of the world so they don't waste their time - or worse, endanger themselves or others - by believing falsehoods.

  That is a commendable motive. I am not wasting my time nor endangering anyone by studying the Bible. Those who use the Bible to further their own agendas will come to naught as is being experienced by many "Bible-based" organizations.

  I appreciate your more moderate and respectful tone.

  Sylvia
• 

  Meeting Junkie No More

  Snowbird:

  I really understand you. But like funkyderek, I have to say that a little bit of historical and analytical reading wouldn't hurt. TESTAMENT by John Romer might be something you'd like - it's meaty, eye-opening and interesting all at the same time. For starters!
• 

  Open mind

  I'd like to say a brief, but very heartfelt, THANK YOU, to the inklings, & snowbirds of JWD.

  I dip my toe in the debating waters now and then, but for most part, I'm pretty lousy at it.

  I debate vicariously through reading threads like this as I'm sure plenty of other readers do.

  And special thanks to funkyderek:

  all human problems are caused by a talking snake and a bit of scrumping

  I learned a new word!

  Thanks FD.

  OM
• 

  snowbird

  LOL at Open Mind.

  Definition: Scrumping

  U.K. steal fruit: to steal fruit, especially apples, from a garden or orchard ( informal )

  Question: What brought woe to mankind, the apple on the tree or the pair on the ground?

  Sylvia
• 

  snowbird

  I think this is worth a bttt.

  Sylvia