DEBATOR- This Circuit Overseer was not just being " imperfect " - he was arrogantly assuming the position of " Jehovah " and telling JW members to NOT question elders either - whether they're right or wrong. Elders and people in positions of authority have all the rights to do as they please but rank and file JW members do not and cannot voice dissenting, disagreeing views. This is the type of arrogant , proud attitude that has dominated the Jehovah's Witnesses organization for years ! And that is one of the many reasons the WT society and witnesses are a mind control cult- they take the locus of power away from the individual and demand unconditional obedience to the elders. What about obeying elders who commit felony child abuse ? Are they just " imperfect " ? Or does their criminal activity invalidate their position in Jehovah's eyes ? And also the JW's eyes ? Think about it
The night I decided my C.O. was an apostate
by Olin Moyles Ghost 34 Replies latest jw friends
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debator
Hi flipper
I was going to answer you until you poisoned the well with the pedophile issue which is a separate much debated topic. If you take that emotional manipulation out of the wording, I was going to say the Bible makes it clear Elders have authority but are under greater personal responsibility and accountability.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. -
flipper
DEBATOR- What if elders get away with abusing that " greater personal responsibility and accountability " towards JW members and they get away with abusing that authority for years and are never disciplined as men " who must give an account ". Then what ? Wait on Jehovah ? It doesn't happen . Rarely does. I saw elders get away with abusing people for years in my 44 years in the organization. If you wait on Jehovah to fix it- you'll have a long wait. Ain't gonna happen
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serenitynow!
"If you wait on Jehovah to fix it- you'll have a long wait."
Amen, mr flipper. I've found in this org that if you are a woman, or a member of the R & F with no connections the "wait on Jehovah" bit does not apply- your wrongdoing will be met with swift, often very harsh judgment. For the "appointed" men, for any judgment we must wait on Jehovah. Oh and we must still obey these leaders and submit to their authority.
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darthfader
Jehovah's Witnesses = Imperfect Organization. I have no problem with the organization being run by imperfect men. I expect the pettiness and political posturing I see in any other organization. But I was always told that you would know Jesus' Disciples because they would have "love among themselves". This is not a distinguishing factor here. I have seen the exact same “love” displayed in many churches and religious groups.
"The Truth" = Flawed Reasoning. It is no longer the truth because the truth should be based upon righteous principles that stand the test of time. The Witnesses no longer have the truth – I doubt there ever had it. If they change the tomorrow, what you have today is not “The Truth”.
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Palimpsest
COs always seemed to love getting involved with drama, at least in my experience. They seemed to actively seek out the juicy stories in each congregation and then try to insert themselves into them so they could look like heroes. It's really bizarre, though, that he would side with one family so publicly. My first thought when I read that was, "Well, they must have been the ones with the most money."
One night at the meeting an elder got up and read and article from better homes and gardens from the platform as a local needs part. It was an article about the witnesses sure but he just read the whole thing...
Not to get off-topic, but I would love to find that article. Internet is failing me. Anyone have an idea?
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finallyfree!
Debator. I'd like to reply to the whole humans being imperfect excuse. Back in the day these so called imperfect men were clearly inspired by god and designated as his people. (King david,moses,the israelites etc) the big problem comes for me when you have a modern day group of imperfect men who are not clearly identified as his people in the bible or you don't see any type of miraculous god sent signs...when one person or group thinks they're right and everyone else wrong they're either fanatics or liars or both. Why do you think there are sooo many different shoots of christianity? Maybe because there is so many scriptures and doctrines that are so open to interpretation. And since we all need something to believe in then there's something for everybody, from the laid back catholics to the wts. Just because you profess to use gods name in your religion does not give you "exclusive dibs" on the one true religion. This is when I ask myself "is that their excuse for all the flip flops and ever changing light?" Or is this just another group of men using religion to get what men always want : power and money.
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StAnn
Debator, if you consider the Bible an authority, doesn't it bother you that the WTS has altered the Bible to say what they want? How can the Bible be an authority for me if this Bible is just a paraphrase of what the GB wants me to believe? How can the WTS claim any authority when it has altered the Bible so that its R&F won't know what it really says?
God "used" the Catholic Church to give the Bible to the world. If God would entrust such an important work to the Catholic Church, don't you think that meant that at least at that time the Church was under the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit and approved by God? Don't you realize that the Bible is a Catholic book? I'll stick with my Catholic Bible any day over the New World "Translation."
StAnn
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debator
Hi flipper
So in fact your gripe is with Jehovah not sorting out certain imperfect elders to your satisfaction before armageddon?
Paul himself sets out what can be done if an elder does do something wrong but he makes it clear it has to be substantiated fully before action is taken becasue an elder is involved.
1 Timothy 5:19-20 (New International Version)
19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
So here Paul is openly showing Elders will make mistakes and gives us instructions on how it is to be dealt with. There is no indication that elders or overseers will be perfect among Gods people and not prone to make mistakes so why are you throwing stones? I do not expect perfection from elders but that they do their job as best they can with my support until perfection comes. An elder goes into his position knowing he is likely to make mistakes because of his imperfection and it could be one he doesn't even see himself. Pauls warns on some of the traps.
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.This is not a man saying himself and others will be free of arrogance etc but acknowledging this is something we have to guard against because it will and can happen to the point he is fearful of it.
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debator
Hi darthfader
What is love? Does it allow for false biblical teachings? Does it paper over worshiping false Gods and idols? Or not following the bible teachings? Would it make you keep God's commands to have elders/overseers over the flock despite knowing they will make mistakes?
Hebrews 6:9-11 (New International Version)
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
A parent loves their child and part of that love is rebuking the child for their own protection.
Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.If a child badly wants more chocolates and begs you for them, would you give them what they want despite knowing that it will make them sick? Why would I support Christian churches that say they love me yet allow me to do things that biblically God condemns and says I will not inherit his kingdom if I keep doing them?
You are very general in your usage of the word love? please be more specific.
Hi finallyfree
You make good points and ones that are why I am a Jehovah's witness. God does use "imperfect" people he had no choice then and he has no choice now! How would the people know Jesus was the messiah? They were in expectation of him but even Jesus God's own son with all the miracles he could do could not convince the Jews that he was the messiah! How could lesser imperfect men show they are God's people without miracles or healings or great signs?
I am a Jehovah's witness because they fit ALL the BIBLE requirements to be God's people.
They don't Just use God's name they recognise Jehovah our Almighty God and father Completely.
Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'Jehovah is our God.' "They worship Jehovah our father.
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.They recognise Jesus as God's beloved and literal son.
Luke 3:22
.....And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.They preach God's word to ALL.
Matthew 24:14 (New International Version)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
They use God's word the Bible for teaching and principles.
2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.Ezekiel 18:4
For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.Psalm 37:11 (Amplified Bible)
11 But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Leviticus 26:1
" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am Jehovah your God.It is only when people try to say things are not as the Bible teaches that you get contradictions and oxymorons. For me current Christianity outside of the witnesses is trying to make me believe the opposite to what the bible says. Trying to make a son be his own Father or that souls cannot die etc.
I see great biblical truth in the witnesses in both Bible teaching and unity. It is a shame to let the unavoidable imperfection of men spoil this for you.
You are right It is easy to say you are God's people but as Jesus's parable showed... Which son was the one that did his father's will? They one that said "Yes" he would go and work in the field yet didn't or the one that initially said "no" but later repented and did his Father's will?
Mark 3:35
Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."It's easy to say you are a Christian but to match action to words and actually doing God's will?
We can look at witness teachings drawn from the Bible and compare them Christendom's false man-made ones that are full of oxymorons and contradictions to the bible. But it is for each person for themselves to decide. I think Witnesses in bible teachings far outstrip established Christianity that cannot even bring themselves to use God's name in any form.
As a witness I enjoy using Jehovah's name, seeing him as a real person in himself, That I can truly worship him as my Father and only God completely. Enjoying the full expression of the bible not constantly having to ignore most of the hebrew scriptures except for a few proof texts. It's pleasure that I delight in as a witness that I would not give up to try and twist my head around a trinity god that can and cannot die, that can and cannot come to earth, that can and cannot be seen, that can and cannot know everything, that can and cannot be father and son at the same time, that earth means heaven and heaven means earth, that 144,000 is everyone, where and idol isn't an idol when the bible shows it is, where men tell me I cannot use God's name.
but none of this will reach you if you are determined not to be a Jehovah's witness and you have to ask yourself if it is you looking for excuses not to be a witness?
Hi St Ann
I refer you to the above. I find the witnesses have brought back Bible truth to the people after centuries of enforced trinitarinism on pain of death so nope I do not agree with you. If People want to continue following a trinity god or rejecting God altogether that is their choice and right, but I freely chose to believe in Jehovah my father and God through his son Jesus and find the witnesses are my people by virtue of believing as I do from God's own word the bible.