I'm curious- why 'god'?

rimfiredancing

I know how I got sucked into the b0rg- I was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion). I'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'. If I'd known then what I know now about the christian god, I'd have told the jw's to stick it.

My psychic experiences didn't end when I became a dub, they just made me desperately terrified that I was, in fact, evil and that it was a sign that no matter how much I tried I could never get god's approval. Now that I'm out, funnily enough these things are getting stronger all the time and I'm more and more comfortable with what happens around me- it's only taken 10 years!

What I'm headtilty about is this: why, when people can read for themselves how murderous, bloodthirsty, vengeful, angry, hostile, genocidal, jealous, petty, demanding, unforgiving and dictating the god of the bible is, do they still have an interest outside the b0rg? I'm not looking to be biblebashed and I'm not interested in being converted (it's impossible, amongst other things I'm psychic (and a very strong one), an energetic healer and someone around whom 'supernatural' things happen all the time, which means I'm either demon possessed or a 'witch' according to the bible and fit only for burning, spitting on, denouncing etc etc, so *very* subzero interest in conversion).

I am, however, curious about how people equate a 'kind and loving god' with the one presented in the bible: the bible supports slavery, witchburning (or stoning, shunning, whatever you like), genocide, the hatred of women, the devaluation of children- the god of the old testament (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought was the same god that jesus was talking about) advocated offering your daughters to be raped to death in order to be a good host, justifies (and actually declares as 'godly') incest, being prepared to offer one's own children as blood sacrifices (despite other cultures being condemned for exactly the same thing) and heaps of other hypocrisies. Ever read The Harlot at the Side of the Road? Amazing stuff.

So mmm, because I am who I am, I'm wondering: how anyone can still find anything in that book worth paying attention to, especially after actually reading it? Is there anything in there that actually gives creedence to the god it's about, or does one have to do the same mental contortions and distortions that the b0rg do (obviously for different aims) in order to assign some kind of loving benevolence to a god that, up to the end of the book itself, is quite happy to obliterate any resistance or different view at all? Given that god is written like that, is it any wonder that religions that adhere to any kind of dogma based on the god of the bible (including islam) have the same way of being- intolerant, vengeful, insisting on the deaths of all unbelievers, etc?

(To be clear, I find *all* religious writings odd in the same way, that anyone could take them seriously after reading them).

VoidEater

...this might be a very small thread...

serotonin_wraith

Well I know for many social Christians who have never even read the Bible (I can't see why they wouldn't if they think it's been written by the creator of the universe!) they only get to hear the watered down, nice parts of the Bible at church - Pslams, the Gospels, letters of Paul... They just don't even think to look further than that for themselves. So they hear 'God is love' over and over, and being the sheep they are, they just believe it all.

Now, as a skeptic, I don't only question religious beliefs, I question 'psychic' beliefs. Isn't that just as coincidental as prayer? Maybe you're not as free and wise as you think, rimfire. Or maybe you could offer undeniable proof of your powers, who knows?

Hortensia

Yeah, I don't get it either. How can anyone with a reasonable amount of education read the bible and think it is not only true, but literal?

rimfiredancing

serotonin_wraith: I was unaware I'd claimed to be free and wise, I was simply talking about my own experiences, which as I believe I mentioned had been happening to me since childhood. I didn't mention at all what those were, so to my mind you're making a giant leap of supposition in the remarks that you made. Am I interested in providing 'proof' for you? Not one iota. I have done my work with many skeptics who are highly intelligent and aware, and they have always been very content with the results of the work that I do. I talk about my life as it is, not as having to defend, prove or justify myself to anyone at all. I made the post out of genuine interest in how people's minds work around the topic of the god of the bible, not because I'm interested in someone armchair analysing me with regards to aspects of my personal life.

As it stands, I wasn't interested in those who have never actually looked deeply at the bible, I was asking about those who *have* and still believe that there is some benevolent god lurking about in the bible. I fully get how the uninformed create their belief systems; I'm curious how *informed* people see things simply because I have no idea how that can be. Just because *I* can't envisage it, doesn't mean others can't- I'm a psychonaut, I like to explore things.

(Out of interest, my children also carry the same ability as I do, in various ways and to various degrees, as did my grandmother, who told me it comes from the line of her family, who long had a reputation for 'feyness'. It's a heritage descended partly from the Irish Rom. I'm also a social scientist (as in the branch of study, NOT scientology, just to head off any possible confusion), have studied the psychology of deep trauma recovery, kinesiology, alternative medicine, am a constant student of parapsychology, just to name a few things. It disinterests me when people jump to blanket conclusions.)

rimfiredancing

void-eater: why is that? Is it because I've been inadvertantly offensive? Because the topic is boring for most people? Because people don't like to think about things like that much? Because there is actually no foundation for seeing a benevolent god in the bible and so people don't want to talk about it?

Just wondering, you see- I like to explore certain things... :)

serotonin_wraith

rimfire,

You seem to me to be on the defensive. If you use your psychic powers, you'll sense I'm not quite the monster you think I am. Everyone likes to think they're freely making their own decisions and wise to boot. It's human nature. Most JWs think they're absolutely right to think as they do. People don't like to see themselves as wrong.

I'm not surprised you don't want to offer proof for your psychic abilities. I'll leave it there.

I know you didn't welcome discussion on your psychic powers, but you did mention them. Call it curiosity to want to know more. If you don't want to talk about it, fine. Let's all go to bed content in the knowledge you're happy with what you believe.

You close with a paragraph about your families' powers, but seeing as you don't want to talk about them, except to declare you have them without offering proof, I can only leave it there. Is it wrong to ask about these things? You're the one flaunting them. If you were only interested in the Biblical god, why bring up those powers at all? Seems odd to me.

rimfiredancing

Hortensia: I'm always curious about how people's minds work. In this case, I'm wondering if they're doing the same mental contortions that the b0rg do, and that fundamentally this isn't a question about the bible but more about humans as a species? Such as, having a trite explanation/rationalisation (ie The Devil) for all the utterly self-and planet- destructive things people do. It does seem to be something that is linked to 'civilisation', because for thousands of years *before* civilisation people lived in variously complex, sustainable societies without much inclination to self destruction (for example, the Australian aboriginals are considered to have a culture that was *at least* 40,000 years old before invasion).

So, is religion (as opposed to spirituality) simply a product of emotionally and psychologically diseased minds? It's an intriguing thought.

VoidEater

Sorry, Rimfire - I was thinking like you:

when people can read for themselves how murderous, bloodthirsty, vengeful, angry, hostile, genocidal, jealous, petty, demanding, unforgiving and dictating the god of the bible is, do they still have an interest

Mostly, I hope people are looking for something more consistently kind to follow; but the OT seems mostly about "my dad is gonne beat up your dad", and indeed perhaps that's the enticement for adults trying to recreate the experiences of their family of origin. Maybe they can only apprecate a nasty, mean God because that's the only kind of parenting they've been exposed to.

how anyone can still find anything in that book worth paying attention to, especially after actually reading it?

Selective belief, me thinks, as well as what you term "mental contortions and distortions".

Or, just pull out the ol' "They all desreved it, those sinners" rationale. Kinda defeats the unconditional love and grace of God that gets airtime in the NT, though.

Again, you say it well yourself:

I was asking about those who *have* and still believe that there is some benevolent god lurking about in the bible.

Could lead to a rather short conversation...yes, there would be those apologists that "bite", but it might be somewhat like asking Rush Limbaugh to give a speech on how only the morally depraved become drug addicts.

Because there is actually no foundation for seeing a benevolent god in the bible and so people don't want to talk about it?

Yeah, that one.

VoidEater

So, is religion (as opposed to spirituality) simply a product of emotionally and psychologically diseased minds?

Religion is the mind's attempt to grapple with the unknown and with spirituality. Sometimes the two intersect; sometimes they are distinct.

I suggest spirituality in its "purest" is in the domain of experience. All the mind can do about sprituality is act as a finger pointing.

I wouldn't say all religion is the result of disease; discomfort, perhaps. Though some minds, like some religions, seem toxic.

I'm curious- why 'god'?

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