serotonin_wraith: I initially mentioned my experiences as part of my brief explanation of how *I* got sucked into the b0rg, explaining (again briefly) my confusion over the nature of them, my distress at finding they *didn't* end when I came 'into the truth' (and all the implications that most fellow ex-b0rg could make about that, knowing the stock standard reactions to anything even remotely 'off the radar') and how things have been since leaving. Part of the reason for mentioning these again was because of the biblical view of such things (which I also made reference to): I at no point was asking for analysis regarding these experiences, because I am almost entirely comfortable with them (and what discomfort I have is linked directly with the echo of christian religion's views of such things in my head, which I am dealing with in my own way and with the loving support of people who actually care about me). What I *was* asking about was the perspective of the bible by people who have *really* read it *and still believe it*.
There is a difference between being defensive and particular ways one deals with certain situations. I don't have any need to be defensive, I was simply being clear (in my way of being so). Being defensive is actually a position that indicates weakness of thinking, in my view, and neither my partner nor I have any interest in it. I've also had the way I speak and think be described as 'arrogant' because I think things through, 'use big words' and don't take things at face value. Defensive, arrogant- both personal interpretations.
I find your comment re my disinclination to 'prove' myself as offensive as such things usually are. I find that people are completely unwilling to take on the burden of 'proving' that the paranormal *isn't* possible, but of course that's besides the point as far as they consider it. My partner is a highly gifted scientist, engineer, roboticist and computer programmer amongst other things; here is what he says about the general population's idea of the existence of 'scientific proof': it's a flawed misunderstanding of how science actually functions. NO serious scientist would be silly enough to claim 'proof' of something, that's simply what the general population *thinks* they're doing.
In science, there is a methodology that goes through hypothesis, prediction and testing: if the predictions emerge through testing as suggested by the hypothesis, then the information is presented to a wider scientific community for further testing and verification. If it passes this in enough positive percentage degrees (given the room for errors, differences in testing conditions etc) then the hypothesis is moved up to the 'theory' category. *There is NO level of 'proven' in science, because science understands that in order for something to be 'proven' it would have to be tested under every possible opportunity in the universe*.
Scientists don't talk about proof, only lay people do. THAT is why I have no interest, because 'proof' is impossible to achieve, there is only theory- and considering that scientific 'truths' are *constantly* coming under question, particularly due to quantum physics, such things as the paranormal are even *more* debatable. There are certain sectors of the scientific community that argue quantum physics itself is more closely akin to 'magic' than science, and they hotly debate the information coming from that quarter. Hell, scientists/researchers can't even agree from one year to the next which fats are 'good' for you and which aren't! So much for 'proving' anything.
I'm a *thinker*, I'm not interested in 'faith' of any kind. I'm totally up for curiousity about my experiences, but you weren't expressing curiousity, you didn't ask questions about my experiences, you questioned my perceptions, my state of freedom and my 'wisdom'. I don't know if you are aware, but the two forms of questioning are very different things. Then in your final paragraph you use the word 'flaunting': (American Heritage Dictionary- flaunt (flônt) Pronunciation Key v. flaunt·ed, flaunt·ing, flaunts, v. tr. ; To exhibit ostentatiously or shamelessly: flaunts his knowledge. See Synonyms at show.Usage Problem To show contempt for; scorn. ; v. intr. To parade oneself ostentatiously; show oneself off.).
That's a pretty loaded word. I wrote that paragraph to demonstrate that what I experience is *not* unusual in my family and that it's actually something my extended family experiences as a group, ex JW or not. How this is 'flaunting', I have no idea, unless you assume that by talking about it I'm somehow making myself superior to others, which is then just supposition on your part and your comment is then more to do with your thinking than mine.
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing 34 Replies latest jw friends
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rimfiredancing
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serotonin_wraith
I at no point was asking for analysis regarding these experiences, because I am almost entirely comfortable with them
I understood that with your last post. My questions had ended. You don't want to talk about it - fine. Not inviting questions does not mean someone cannot ask questions.
Being defensive is actually a position that indicates weakness of thinking, in my view
Views differ. I've had to try defending evolution on this site. There's no weakness on my side, but sometimes facts need defending.
I find that people are completely unwilling to take on the burden of 'proving' that the paranormal *isn't* possible, but of course that's besides the point as far as they consider it
Also known as proving a negative. The burden's not on me.
The word 'proof'. Okay, to make it technically correct, testing something so that the probability of it being true is so high any sane person wouldn't deny it.
If by saying you and your family have special powers you're not showing off, I can only apologize. But don't expect anyone to believe you until you offer something more than a statement which you don't want to be examined in any great detail.
You may as well have said 'There's a fairy at the bottom of my garden... why are you questioning me? You don't seem curious about the fairy, you only want to show I'm wrong!'
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Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit
Good post.
I read some shunning articles from WT and KM that my dad sent me to tell me why 'the Bible says' he can't contact me. To be fair, I read all the verses in the online bible on the JW site, since we don't own one any longer. In fact, I read several chapters to make sure I got it, and I concluded that the bible is anti-family; I read a lot and I found coldness and exclusivity and it was ever more of a turnoff. St. Paul was the worst, with his belief that believers are superior--that's all I get from him. No where do I find in the bible anything to support my side-that family should come first and be stronger and more loyal to one another than any other bond, instead, Jesus came to divide families and all that rot. There may be an overall feeling of love and stuff, but I don't find it on an individual level from the writers except where believers are concerned.
Pass.
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frankiespeakin
Welcome Rim,
I enjoyed your post, you sound OK to me man. I like the way you handle yourself, I can tell you be fun to read in the future.
BTW do you have any Indian ancestry, Irish Gypsy cool!
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rimfiredancing
serotonin_wraith:
<quote>"There's no weakness on my side, but sometimes facts need defending."\</quote>
Methods also differ. I don't defend, I explore and discuss- what is the basis of defense? I have yet to find one that isn't based on the 'power over' structure, the foundations of which partly rely on the adherance to 'one world view'. I simply don't adhere to this view- quantum physics indicates that there could very well be as many universes as there are people on the planet. I personally hold that there is a unique view that every person possesses of the universe they find themselves in, and I don't need anyone else to 'validate' mine in order for me to be accepting of myself and my own experiences. This is why I explore, not defend.
<quote>If by saying you and your family have special powers you're not showing off, I can only apologize. But don't expect anyone to believe you until you offer something more than a statement which you don't want to be examined in any great detail.</quote>
If you can point me to the sentence in which I claimed 'special powers' for both myself and my family, I'll be surprised. *You* are the one both using these words and attributing the attitude to me, neither of which I personally either use or feel. It seems to me that you have taken offense by my simple statements of 'this is what I am and experience' and decided that this means I think I'm superior to others. Do you normally conduct your conversations based on immediate assumptions? Interestingly, I have found the same attacking form of defense in relation to people making assumptions about me based on my level of intelligence and how they interpret that in relation to what they feel about themselves. I've been bashed because people have insisted that I feel like I'm 'better' than they are simply because I am intelligent. School taught me a great deal about how the general population thinks.
At no point in my post did I also ask for or indicate expectation that anyone 'believe' me. I wasn't and am not interested in other people's 'belief'. I didn't *make* the post about my abilities, I have explained twice why I mentioned them, I'm not going to explain it again. I wasn't asking for discussion, debate or analysis about my experiences and abilities, my post was *about biblical interpretation*. My post *continues* to be pertaining to *biblical interpretation*, on which subject other posters are writing about. This isn't a thread about psychic ability or the non-existence thereof, it's about *biblical interpretation*; although again I cite acupuncture as just one instance of something 'working' that western science cannot explain in relation to your repeated references to 'proof'.
As an aside: I wonder what proof of fairies one would consider authentic these days, given special effects, photoshopping and the like? Probably wouldn't be satisfied until one is caught in a jar and miserably displayed, probed, examined, molested and eventually dissected for the satisfaction of the 'superior' humans. Blechh. Thank goodness they're too quick to be caught. :) -
rimfiredancing
frankiespeakin- by Indian, do you mean Native American? I don't have any traceable ancestry but I have been told by others, as well as experienced for myself, that I do have links in some ways with several Native American traditional societies. Odd things happen around me. I'm travelling to a tribal gathering in April and am looking forward to spending time with elders and teachers of several different indigenous groups, Native American, Australian Aboriginal, Maori to name three.
I'm also currently exploring linking up with any other Rom groups here in Australia, if there are any. -
rimfiredancing
Pioneer Spit (*laughing* I love that name btw, it makes me grin every time I see it):
I too have come to the conclusion that both the bible and the society it is predominantly connected with are not only anti family, but anti life. I totally agree with you about how much the bible has hatred of family as a theme, as well as many other hatreds. I have been wondering if the bible was created as a tool for enforcing civilisation as the dominant paradigm over tribalism; tribes don't make good slaves, submissive subordinates, passive workers or any of the other things that civilisation needs in order to function. I do know that it's been used as a tool to dominate indigenous cultures all over the world.
Not a nice book, nor nice god, from my reading- but then, what dictator ever IS nice? :/ -
Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit
Yeah, I literally felt a pang of Wow when I read these scriptures, I'd never realized it before: it says to inculcate your kids, and kids obey parents, everybody 'respect' each other and submit to dad and work for the cause, but there's no mention of family relationship there. Just those stuffy single apostles who advised against marriage and preached excommunication--but I've got these 5 shipwrecks on my resume. . .
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frankiespeakin
Rim,
Since you have an interest in the indigenous people I think you might like this:
Fire on the Mountain: A ... all » Gathering of Shamans is a documentary about the connection between consciouness and nature, as embodied in the spiritual traditions of Indigenous Peoples, :
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jaguarbass
(To be clear, I find *all* religious writings odd in the same way, that anyone could take them seriously after reading them). I can tell you how it worked for me. I escaped the tower in 83 at 31 years old. I was convinced the JW's didnt have the truth. But I wanted to believe that the bible held the truth. People see and hear what they want to believe. In America that is the message I was relating to the bible had mans answers. So I read the book 5 times cover to cover. And it bothered me, the murderous, bloodthirsty, vengeful, angry, hostile, genocidal, jealous, petty, demanding, unforgiving and dictating the god of the bible. But I also found comfort reading the Psalms and enjoyed proverbs and ecclesiastes and I realize now I fell under the God Spell or Gospell. I watched Bible TV. I think I liked listening to people talk. I wanted their to be a God. I wanted there to be purpose and order. And I wanted to relate to others who saw the purpose and order. But just as I escaped the Wac Tower. I thought about all the contradictions and errors of the bible. And when I was 52, I decided that the bible was not the word of God. And if it was, God wasnt worth worshiping. Several things turned me off from the bible. For one thing the bible says whatsoever you ask you shall recieve. Well that isnt so. Any one can test that verse. And if that isnt so. Probably a lot of other things arent so. Then I saw how a great many Christians in Amerika supported a mad man for president because he was married to the same murderous woman and he never got caught getting a blow job. And hes against scientific research and advancement, Stem cells. But its ok for him to not understand that he doesnt understand his intelligence briefings and cause thousands of Americans and Iraquis to die. I saw how the Christians and the ding bat think he is a man of God doing Gods work. W. probably is doing the murderous work of the God of the bible but as I said I dont feel the God of the bible deserves my worship. Then I came to see how a great number of preachers who preached how important it is to be moral and chaste where anything but moral and chaste. I came to see that preachers live by the rule do as I say not as I do. I dont need any of that. I came to see that those who vehemently speak out against homosexuality are most likely homosexuals. And those who speak out against pedophiles are most often pedophiles. Strange world we live in. I really dont know the answers to the questions you ask. I did read a booklet shortly after I escaped the tower that rung true to me. It said that we are all zombies wandering around in a trance and very few of us ever wake up. I've been trying to wake up. And I've met others who seem more awake than I. Maybe its the floride they put in the water. Or maybe its the reason for our existence that no one understands. How can people go to church? How can they have faith in political leaders? How can they belive in evolution? How can they belive in the bible? Where did we come from and where are we going? Why are we here? So today I no longer believe in the bible. But I have just as many or more questions thar I started out with. And very few if any satisfying answers.