Death Fear and Hope Envy on the forum

by slimboyback 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyback
    slimboyback

    We are all afraid of death, well most of us I should say. That fear explains a lot of our behaviour, and with that in mind we could cut each other a little slack.

    Take those on the forum who come here to defend either the Witnesses or their belief in God. Why are they often so fierce, bitter and caustic? I say it's obvious. They are not merely defending their view of the world or how it really is. By countering other conceptions of reality they are ultimately defending their precious and hard-fought hope that death itself may be overcome. Ask them to give up their beliefs and in effect you are asking them to give in to death. No wonder they fight so hard! So let's treat them a bit more gentle, and recognise that the "facts" are probably not what they are crying out for, despite protestations to the contrary. Arguing over footnotes of evidence may not help. From my own experience I know that when I used to wage war with bad ol' apostates over the Internet it was because I was afraid that bit by bit my fantasy that death might be avoided was being dismantled. That was what was driving me when I think about it. There were other factors in the mix too including pride and my life situation to be sure, but the fear of death looms large.

    But what about those of us who have lost faith in the Witnesses and in God: why are we often just as fierce, caustic and bitter as those defenders of their faith who are trying to assuage their own mortality? That makes no sense does it? We have largely given up on hopes for immortality, so it can't be fear of death driving our vehement defence of our worldview. A pure devotion to the "truth" of the situation does not explain it all either. I reckon it often boils down to envy of believers and the hope they have been able to maintain against the odds. When I lost my faith I got a reality check that wiped out my ability to believe in a future paradise or any kind of life after death. I certainly don't wish the world really was this way, but it "is" and we have to deal with it. Often I even think I would rather still believe if that were possible, and I know others here have expressed similar sentiments. So no wonder we sometimes envy those on a certain level who have managed to retain their faith either in the Witness worldview or in a personal God awaiting us when we die. Of course there are lots of things we do not envy, least of all the ignorance and the mind control involved in believing in the Witnesses, and other belief systems for that matter. We don't envy that. But the hope they have, I am sure we all envy that sometimes. It's simply not fair they get to still believe it all, when I can no longer bring myself to believe it! And that can drive us to be a little less kind during debates than perhaps do justice to our personality. It's a bit like having dropped our ice cream on the floor we feel the urge to knock the ice cream out the other's hand. That's sounds mean doesn't it? Well I think it really can be mean like that.

    Believers are driven by death fear and non-believers are driven by hope envy, and the results are debates that often veer off the page onto the personal and become bitter.

    If this argument has some "truth", then maybe looking at the situation this way can help us be more reflexive when debating each other: believers and non-believers.

  • LouBelle
    LouBelle

    Personally I don't fall into the above - I am at peace about my JW past, I don't envy anyones' hopes / desires / faith. I think because I know it's me that's got to make the most of whatever situation, it's me that decides.....

    perhaps it's simply because people really don't give a rats ass about someone elses' opinion - they beleive they are right and thats' that, and sometimes trying to reason over an internet forum doesn't really get what you're trying to say (tone wise anyway) There could be too many ""ifs"" to list

  • Fatfreek
    Fatfreek

    It's a bit like having dropped our ice cream on the floor we feel the urge to knock the ice cream out the other's hand.

    I don't like to admit that but at times it's true.

    Well said, Slim.

    Len

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    I don't fall into the above either. I'm fine with my death to come. I don't have a desire to live forever in some form. I'm glad I was born in the first place. If someone thinks they've won the lottery when they actually haven't, I don't envy that comfort, because it's false. Same with the belief in an eternal afterlife. As hard as life may be sometimes, I'd rather face that than believe in something that isn't true, just because it gives me comfort. I think it's quite immature.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Thoughtful post slim - I think that death does influence people even when they have an atheistic outlook. Its just that life in the west is fairly comfortable and secure but we do still rely on/look to a provider/source of security.

    Regarding envy - I know I sometimes feel quite envious of the fellowship I've left behind.

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    Believers are driven by death fear

    I'm a believer in God and the Bible and I'm not driven by fear of death, but hope of seeing justice done.

    Don't get me wrong; I love living and wish I could keep on forever, but it has been adjudged otherwise - for now,

    I do believe in the first and second resurrections mentioned in Revelation, and I believe that all who have ever lived will be in one or the other.

    Otherwise, Satan would have won.

    Were you originally Slimboyfat?

    Sylvia

  • Maddie
    Maddie

    I don't envy other people whether they have a faith or not and I don't feel the need to insult anyone either. I am on my own journey and not sure where it will take me. Sometimes I think about death and it frightens me but its not constantly on my mind.

    Maddie

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    I was just thinking about this very subject yesterday. Why do non-believers and blatant atheists try so hard to kick

    the god out of those that do believe? Then it occurred to me that it might possibly be that they are the ones that are

    afraid.....afraid that they themselves lack some "sense" that enables them to "see" that there is a force in this universe that moves

    our evolution toward a purpose. They argue, trying desperately to find a nugget of something that will awaken their own "eyes".

    I do not care what someone else believes. It is not for me to impose my way on you, but I do enjoy discussion and debate.

    I don't believe in a God/Man Deity that judges our life and rewards or punishes us. But I KNOW, based on personal experiences,

    that there is something operating behind the scenes that is conscious, powerful, and purposeful. This energy is available to everybody,

    but you yourself have to have the means to access it. Those that believe in God in the conventional sense intuitively feel this and label

    it and interpret it through the eyes of their religion. Then when they lose their religion, they lose their language for describing this energy,

    so they, in turn, decide that they have lost "God". When they lose that "knowing", they struggle, albeit subconsciously, to get a glimpse

    of it again, but it is difficult because they lost the language and haven't discovered a replacement.

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Very good post slim you said So no wonder we sometimes envy those on a certain level who have managed to retain their faith either in the Witness worldview or in a personal God awaiting us when we die.
    I am a believer in a Creator. I chose to call HIM Jesus ..... But I truly believed I had the truth as a JW.... But when they gave me the left foot of fellowship I wanted to die...Because I felt like Judas . Then I found a personal relationship with MY GOD!!!
    I dont have to push him on others ..... Because I feel it is a personal thing. like marriage- You chose your wife ( most do) I chose to look for God.... I feel he found me in my turmoil.Yes I did cry out to GOD!!!
    I know many laugh at me saying I am looking forward to "kicking the bucket" No !!!I dont want to suffer but If I had my "druthers" I would like to go anytime soon with a heart attack.. Quick like!!!!Because I DO believe there is a better place with the promise of no pain, no tears, no heartache... It is Faith. If I am wrong AGAIN.... Well it has given me a peace I never had as a JW....

    Sorry for the long post

  • TD
    TD

    Interesting post

    I agree with the concept of death fear in the believer. The JW faith (And many others as well) tap into the survival instinct at many levels.

    I'm not sure if the hope envy premise accounts for the fact that many people have suffered real, lasting injury at the hands of this religion and it's adherents.

    Instead of envy, perhaps a bitter, caustic attitude on the part of the unbeliever is more directly attributable to the fact that a family member lies dead today as a direct result of a medical position this religion taught as holy writ and then reveresed without a word of apology. Starry-eyed converts and lying apologists who believe that, "Our organization has commented consistently on this matter" and other prevarications are not usualy treated gently, especially on the internet.

    Perhaps its more dicrectly attributable to the loss of one's family, the estrangement of one's own offspring and the disintegration of one's marriage as a direct result of renouncing this religion's doctrines. Advising the spouse of a former believer to seek a divorce on the grounds of "Spiritual endangerment" is particularly odious in my opinion.

    Perhaps its the result of having a family member abused and then seeing the abuser protected by the congregation and then seeing the organization condemn other religious for doing the same thing.

    Perhaps it's just simple frustration at seeing the same time-worn fallacious answers trotted out time after time. Wondering out loud how someone could be so stupid is not necessarily envy over that person's state of stupidity

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