Indeed, if you look at my post in the linked thread, I provide a Diatessaronic witness that attests the text WITHOUT the gloss and Pauline-like language.
Mat 27.52 bodies of holy ones.Sorry,bro.Franz but YOU'RE RIDICULING US
by aligot ripounsous 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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dawg
Jesus was a false prophet, his followers are trying to make the scriptures match what they think the Messiah is supposed to be like, there's a reference in Ezek. That predicts the raising of the dead... this is to once again fulfill prophesy, just as the deciples say everytime Jesus preforms a miricle. Sad so much time is wasted on wondering what Jesus meant, when he plainly is a nut job.
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JosephMalik
The biggest problem are the words "after his resurrection", which -- most bizarrely -- delays the appearance of those resurrected for three days (Matthew 27:53).
Leolaia,
This is not a problem since we had great Sabbath at that time which made the next two days both Sabbath days. This in itself would delay the picking up of such dead bodies for such three days to prepare them for reburial. Otherwise the living involved in the clean up work would become unclean for this Passover. And the resurrection would have taken place as well when this high Sabbath ended and the clean up work began. This accounts for this delay. There is therefor no contradiction with Paul’s discussion of the resurrection. A literal restoration of life did not take place as the scriptures teach and no evidence that such bodies lived or breathed exists. None period.
Joseph
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EverAStudent
I believe the event did take place three days later, after Jesus resurrected. We are told that when the stone was rolled away from Jesus' tomb, it was accompanied by a severe earthquake (Matthew 28:2). Thus the tomb-walker earthquake / resurrection coincides with the timing of Jesus bodily leaving the tomb.
Also consider that the graveyards were located outside Jerusalem by law. Jerusalem is a walled city, and the graveyards, for the better part, are downhill of the city wall. How did an earthquake destroy the stone tombs, throw the bodies 20 feet into the air (and up to a half mile distant) over the city walls, but not be severe enough to destroy the walls or the city?
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choosing life
Matt. 27:52,53 has always seemed strange to me. The watchtower explanation only makes matters worse. There were, as Joseph mentions, resurrections mentioned in the Bible before Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Granted, they weren't dead for centuries, but they had to be dead to qualify for a resurrection.
Jesus' resurrection was different because he was the first to be resurrected from human form to heaven as a spirit creature. That it the only way he could have been "first."
Why this event is not included elsewhere is puzzling. It would have been quite astonishing.
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JosephMalik
Everastudent,
We are not talking about the same earthquake. What you are describing was an aftershock quite common during severe earthquakes. Then again not all hills were downhill of the wall. The Mount of Olives for example was higher and they could look down on the temple from there. The walls had entrance ways in them so bodies could get in. But this is not the point here. The point being made is that after being released from the tombs, the bodies had to be prepared for reburial by someone and touching them any earlier would make them unclean for this high Passover taking place. The Law was very clear on this and we should stay with what we know. This is really how they got into the city so people could see them. And the three day delay involved proved that a high Sabbath was taking place at the time. I learned this over 30 years ago just by following the events in real time. Making up things like throwing bodies 20 feet and more should never be done unless you have proof. Do you? Another thing that we should not do is question Paul's work in the faith as if we are smarter than him. Questioning Paul is like questioning the decision Jesus made when appointing him as His apostle. Was that a mistake made by Jesus? I notice this done a lot when their errors are exposed. The mistake here is with the false doctrine being spread around over the years and believed by many organized religions. When exposed then the text and the people involved in writing it like Paul must be criticised to save face. The teachers that continue to make this mistake and follow such scholars are the ones that deserve the criticism not the texts.
Joseph
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JosephMalik
Jesus' resurrection was different because he was the first to be resurrected from human form to heaven as a spirit creature. That it the only way he could have been "first."
Why this event is not included elsewhere is puzzling. It would have been quite astonishing.
Choosing life,
Jesus body was taken back or resurrected as an immortal human being. This is what made Him first. Nowhere does the bible teach that we go to somewhere else in the universe called heaven when we are restored to life. That is a false doctrine also taught by many like the WTS. Immortality on earth is our hope in Christ as Jesus and Paul taught. That this earthquake involving dead bodies was a non-event that did not require elaboration is not a puzzle at all. It happens even today in places like New Orleans where bodies are buried above ground.
Joseph
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choosing life
Joseph,
If Jesus was resurrected as an immortal human being and he didn't go to a place called "heaven", where do you believe he exists now? Just curious?
I wonder if there are dimensions that we cannot experience? What scripture from Paul are you referring to?
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JosephMalik
If Jesus was resurrected as an immortal human being and he didn't go to a place called "heaven", where do you believe he exists now? Just curious?
Choosing life,
I only discussed part of that happened, the part that applies to us. This answered and corrected your questions. In other posts I covered this in more detail. How was Jesus resurrected back to life? Like this: John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Was this human or non-human nature when this prayer was fulfilled? Non-human! But this non-human nature was not sacrificed for us. However as such a non-human once again Jesus could raise the dead body that was sacrificed for us with no problem. And it was an immortal human body we learned in Paul's letter to Timothy. When such human immortality took place is another story revealed in scripture. And taking this body back as God commanded to be done added another nature to this Jesus that God permitted Him to have. We learn this here: Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. This did not change history or the fact that this body was sacrificed and made available for further use in God's Kingdom. Where Jesus exists now we do not know. Someplace in the presence of God. How we do not know as either nature can be and was used at times. But when our Lord returns, it will be in His human nature. That we do know for sure. Regarding the scriptures of Paul. That was done by other posters trying to support their ideology. It is sad to think that organized religion has stooped so low, teaching lies and we put our trust and money in them. Trust in God. Believe in Jesus. Follow him and correct your own errors as you get to see things more clearly. Above all try and be the best human being you can be as that alone is enought to get you into the kingdom.
Joseph
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EverAStudent
Joseph wrote: "We are not talking about the same earthquake. What you are describing [from Matthew 28:2] was an aftershock quite common during severe earthquakes. Then again not all hills were downhill of the wall. The Mount of Olives for example was higher and they could look down on the temple from there. The walls had entrance ways in them so bodies could get in. But this is not the point here. The point being made is that after being released from the tombs, the bodies had to be prepared for reburial by someone and touching them any earlier would make them unclean for this high Passover taking place. The Law was very clear on this and we should stay with what we know. This is really how they got into the city so people could see them. And the three day delay involved proved that a high Sabbath was taking place at the time. I learned this over 30 years ago just by following the events in real time. Making up things like throwing bodies 20 feet and more should never be done unless you have proof. Do you? Another thing that we should not do is question Paul's work in the faith as if we are smarter than him. Questioning Paul is like questioning the decision Jesus made when appointing him as His apostle. Was that a mistake made by Jesus? I notice this done a lot when their errors are exposed. The mistake here is with the false doctrine being spread around over the years and believed by many organized religions. When exposed then the text and the people involved in writing it like Paul must be criticised to save face. The teachers that continue to make this mistake and follow such scholars are the ones that deserve the criticism not the texts."
Joseph, your comments are interesting, but inconsistent, both with what I wrote and with regard to Scripture. When the tombstone is rolled away from Jesus' tomb in Matthew 28:2, it does not describe it as "an aftershock" as you characterized it, but as a "severe earthquake." Where in the text did you deduce the theory that this was an aftershock?
I further believe that you have addressed the wrong individual, as I did not invent the "tossed bodies" theory. That rather improbable theory comes directly from the Watchtower's Insight on the Scriptures, pages 368-369. The Watchtower indicates that the bodies were literally "thrown" into the city by the violence of the earthquake. I quite agree with you that such individuals ought to not make up such things without proof, and I further agree with you that "such scholars are the ones that deserve the criticism."
Though I hold to the text of Scripture just as it is written, I appreciated the opportunity to interact with you on the subject.
A Student