New testament contradictions.

by Anti-Christ 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I'm not sure why this thread was started in the first place but imo the basic contradiction between Matthew's and Luke's nativity stories is narrative.

    If you read each of them separately, as they were meant to, you have two irreconciliable stories indeed:

    The simple reader of Matthew understands that Joseph and Mary first live in Judea and then, as a result of the story (the Magi, Herod, the slaughter, Egypt, and Archelaus) move to Nazareth in Galilee.

    The reader of Luke understands that Joseph and Mary first live in Galilee and are constrained (by the well-known but anachronical Quirinius' census) to travel to Judea temporarily for the birth of Jesus.

    Those are independent stories with a different geographical starting point. Of course a millenial practice of mixing up the two stories in Christmas liturgy obscures that, but if you really read the texts as they stand it is impossible, imo, to avoid this conclusion.

    As to BTS' quotation of Justin, it takes incredible naïveté to believe that the "Emperor" could, or would, check the "sources" over one century after the "facts". Saying "you can check" when you are sure your interlocutor in fact can't, and won't, is a never-failing rhetorical device.

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ
    I'm not sure why this thread was started in the first place

    Because I am the Antichrist

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    is a never-failing rhetorical device

    So what you are saying is that Justin Martyr is full of BS on this one?

    Burn

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Burn:

    Not necessarily, he may really believe the story is true and the sources must be there.

    But in that case he doesn't actually testify to anything but this belief of his...

    What's the true "risk" of that kind of assertion? Do you seriously think he was expecting an official comeback from the Roman administration? Should that happen in the form of, "No, sorry, Sir, we have no record of those people," how long do you think would that shake a "true believer"? The answers that are ready in your mind (it's not true, the records have been willfully falsified, etc.) were available too, you know.

    It's a bit like the reference in 1 Corinthians 15 to the witnesses of Jesus' resurrection, "some of which (unnamed of course) are still alive". It's quite impressive at first sight, but how could it possibly be disproved?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    What's the true "risk" of that kind of assertion? Do you seriously think he was expecting an official comeback from the Roman administration?

    I guess not. He could not have meant it really, after all, there was no risk to him in his activities. His life could not have been on the line. He could afford the luxury of making stuff like that up. The association his name has with certain events is purely coincidental.

    ...Et je vis les âmes de ceux qui avaient été décapités à cause du témoignage de Jésus et à cause de la parole de Dieu...

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I definitely would not lean on Justin's comment, which is open to interpretation. The way I read it, the second person reference in mathein dunasthe (1 Apology 34.2) is to the Emperor, his son, Lucius the Philosopher, and the Roman Senate (cf. the address in 1.1), i.e. high-level government officials whom Justin believed had access to official administrative records in Rome (cf. Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem, 4.7). Justin does not say that the records were public, or that he had seen them, or that he had independent verification of the enrollment of Jesus' family in the census records. He already had it on good authority (the authority of Luke, then recognized as Scripture) that Jesus' family was enrolled in that census, and he would not have doubted this information. His statement is not evidence per se that he had any direct information from the census itself, and it is a bit of a false dilemma to assume that Justin either was making a false statement or had direct knowledge of what was in the official archives.

    The biggest obstacle imho to reading Luke as implying a different census than the one in AD 6 is the laconic reference to "the census" in Acts 5:37. Since Luke-Acts originally formed a single work, a reader of Acts would naturally find the logical antecedent of this census in Luke 2:1-3 which otherwise is the only census mentioned by the author. This passage in Acts states that the revolt of "Judas the Galilean" occurred "in the days of the census". In fact, Josephus mentions this revolt by Judas the Galilean and he says that it occurred as a reaction to the census of Quirinius after the replacement of Herod Archelaus with Coponius (Antiquities 18.1-6). That was the census of AD 6. So both Josephus and Luke-Acts associate Quirinius and Judas the Galilean with a census and if the author of Luke-Acts meant two different censuses, it is remarkable that he did not distinguish the two (especially since this "later" census would have ALSO been a census under Quirinius) and that this failure to do so just so happened to produce the same associations between Quirinius, the census, and Judas the Galilean found in Josephus. And if we grant the weight of the evidence that suggests that the author of Luke-Acts was dependent on Josephus, then he would have definitely meant the census of AD 6.

    Other than that, there is the fact that the census in Luke 2:1-3 is presented as resulting from a decree by Augustus Caesar, indicating that Judea was then subject to direct Roman taxation. According to Josephus, it was the end of Herodian family rule (during which Judea was a client kingdom, not a Roman province) that brought this circumstance about, and he presents the census of AD 6 as the first systematic official Roman census of its kind -- representing a new assertion of Roman power in the province. This also accounts for the description of the census as the "first census" in Luke. The revolt of Judas the Galilean reacted to this change of affairs, which he viewed as nothing other than "an introduction to slavery" (Antiquities 18.1-6, Bellum Judaicum 2.433). If Luke presented the census as a local administrative affair, internal to the kingdom, that would be one thing, but making the census an imperial effort suggests that Judea at the time was subject to systematic imperial taxation, and that fits the famous census of AD 6 better than some unknown census earlier when Judea was still a kingdom under Herod.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Thank you Leo. That wraps it up quite well. Assuming the later date of 6AD, which you persuade me to believe, wouldn't that coincide with the reign of the ethnarch Herod Archelaus?

    Burn

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Assuming the later date of 6AD, which you persuade me to believe, wouldn't that coincide with the reign of the ethnarch Herod Archelaus?

    I believe so. Luke 1:5 does not actually specify which "King Herod" it was. We know for sure it wasn't Herod Antipas, who is distinguished by the title "tetrarch" in 3:1, who had been tetrarch of Galilee since 4 BC. And "King Herod" is conspicuously absent in ch. 2. Perhaps you may have noticed that no local governor or ruler is mentioned, rather only a foreign ruler, Quirinius -- who was the governor or legatus of Syria. Why was the census mentioned with respect to a foreign ruler? The AD 6 census gives a straightforward answer -- there was no longer any "King Herod", as he had just been deposed, and Quirinius was in Judea where -- according to Josephus -- he administered a census as part of his duties as legatus.

    So one possible way to read the text is to regard the "King Herod" of Luke 1:5 as King Herod Archelaus, and John the Baptist was born towards the end of his reign (ch. 1). Then he is deposed, and Quirinius goes to Judea as part of the "reconstruction", and administers the census in ch. 2, and Jesus is then born shortly afterwards (ch. 2). Then many years later (in AD 28-29), Tiberius Caesar was emperor, Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and Philip was the tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis (3:1). That is the time when John the Baptist began his ministry (at age 24 or so). John then continued his ministry for an unspecified length of time (which could include years) and then he was locked up in prison by Herod Antipas (v. 19-20). Only then is Jesus introduced, who was baptized by John, but obviously before he was locked in prison (v. 21). It is after this that the age of Jesus is mentioned as "thirty years old when he began his ministry" (v. 23). It is customary to synchronize this with the data in 3:1, but this is an unwarranted assumption. The length of John's ministry is unspecified, other than the fact that if Jesus was born in AD 6, an age of "about 30" for the start of his own ministry would make John the Baptist's movement last a good number of years before his death. It is striking that the author has a very precise date for the beginning of John's ministry but an imprecise dating for Jesus' ministry (hósei etón triakonta), which suggests that he was a little unsure of exactly the age of Jesus was when he began preaching. So if John began preaching in AD 28-29, and continued building his movement for several years, then Jesus could have started his ministry in AD 34 or 35 or 36 (but not too close to the end of Pontius Pilate's governorship in early AD 37), and still would have been "about 30" (i.e. 28 or 29 years old). This is not the standard dating of Jesus, but it accords strikingly well with the indication in Josephus that John was executed shortly before the insurrection of AD 35-36 (Antiquities 18.113-119) -- a dating that would otherwise be a problem for conventional chronology. So if John died in AD 34 or 35, then the crucifixion could conceivably be placed in March/April 35 or 36, at least in the scheme of Luke.

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ

    Thank you Leolaia, Narkissos and Burn. You all bring different details that are interesting to look up.

    And Nark the real reason I bring up topics like this one is that I'm looking for more information on certain things regarding the bible and I am trying to understand why certain people still believe in the inerrancy of the bible, is it because they lack certain knowledge on it or are they simply ignoring certain things about it.

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