by kifoy 41 Replies latest watchtower bible
Interesting, other Croatian translations (catholics) says "foolishness of the preaching"!?
http://www.hbk.hr/biblija/nz/p1kor.htm#p1kor1
(21) Doista, kad svijet u mudrosti Božjoj Boga ne upozna mudrošcu, svidjelo se Bogu ludošcu propovijedanja spasiti vjernike.
BTW, John 7:46 in Croatian: " Stražari su odgovorili: “Nikada nitko nije tako govorio"", "never nobody not spoke like this" (in Croatian, multiple negations does not revoke each other)
They removed the brackets from the paperback editions of the English NWT - Col. 1:15, 16. You can find them in the old hardback editions. No mentions made of the wonderful changes (tongue in cheek) - just a quiet removal of brackets and pretend that the word was always there.
Croatian NWT completely omit word "other" in all places in Col. 1:16-20, except: 17 Also, he is before all other things
Actually an ambiguous word like "proclamation" (better than "preaching," inasmuch as kèrux, "herald," is not a particularly "religious" term), meaning both the act of proclaiming and the message proclaimed, is quite correct.
My remark rested on the general differentiation in classical Greek between substantives in -ma and -sis, e.g. pragma and praxis: words in -ma usually refer to the result or object of the action, whereas words in -sis describe the action itself. So kèrugma most naturally refers to what is preached. But inasmuch as kèruxis is rare and not used in the N.T. the two senses can indeed be found for kèrugma, e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:4 which clearly refers to the action or way of proclaiming.
As to John 7:46, in view of the frequent practice of Christological ambiguity and double entendre in the Fourth Gospel, I would personally be reluctant to drop the word anthrôpos, "man". Sure the basic meaning is "Never has anyone spoken like this!" (NRSV), but the hint that Jesus is no mere "man" (which the NWT explicitly tries to avoid with the addition of "other") cannot be ruled out imo. But dogmatically this possibility is just as embarrassing to orthodoxy (which claims that Jesus was also a man) as it is to JW-like unitarianism.
Actually an ambiguous word like "proclamation" (better than "preaching," inasmuch as kèrux, "herald," is not a particularly "religious" term), meaning both the act of proclaiming and the message proclaimed, is quite correct.
In Croatian translations, there is no doubt about meanings. In this case (1. Cor. 1:21) NWT is more precise than official catholic translation?!
As to John 7:46, thanks for clarification. Obviously, Croatian NWT is not just a simple copy/paste from English NWT, it frequently uses solutions from existing catholic translation, rather then English NWT.
Well, if propovijedanje (have I got the right word?) cannot mean "the message" (about the cross, which is the point of the passage), it does miss something imo. But if I'm not mistaken you have not quoted the Croatian NWT for this one.
Again, I think the basic mistake of most traditional translations for kèrusso ktl. results from clinging to the "church-word" "preaching" instead of choosing a more secular word to describe the official proclamation of a herald, kèrux. I suppose the NWT which generally breaks away from religious technical terms (congregation instead of church, good news instead of Gospel, etc.) did not do it in that particular case because "preaching" was an essential word of WT speech...
But as you say the Croatian NWT does show unusual signs of independence from the English NWT. Maybe we'll see the translator posting here someday...
kifoy
Here is Finnish contribution for John 7:46:
1975 printed version: Virkailijat vastasivat: ”Koskaan ei kukaan [toinen] ihminen ole puhunut sillä tavoin.”
2007 CD: Virkailijat vastasivat: ”Koskaan ei kukaan toinen ihminen ole puhunut sillä tavoin.”
Markku
Kiitos Markku
That's interesting. So the first edition kept the brackets. And it may not have been a direct translation from English either?
But in the newest edition, the brackets are removed. Can you check Mathew 23:5 on your 2007 CD as well?
So, somewhere in between, someone decided that the brackets were not important to keep?
Well, if propovijedanje (have I got the right word?) cannot mean "the message" (about the cross, which is the point of the passage), it does miss something imo. But if I'm not mistaken you have not quoted the Croatian NWT for this one.
We have two words: "propovijedanje" (act of preaching, without content) and "propovijed" (message of the preaching, or sermon, for example "propovijed na gori" = "sermon on the mount"),
NWT: " ali Bog je odlucio da ludošcu onoga što se propovijeda spasi one koji vjeruju." "but God decided through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing." This is literal word-to-word translation.
HBK: "svidjelo se Bogu ludošcu propovijedanja spasiti vjernike." " God saw good through the foolishness of the preaching to save believers." This is literal word-to-word translation too, with "preaching" = act of preaching, no matter what is content of the preaching.
Possible variant: "ludošcu propovijedi" ("foolishness of the message of the preaching", or "foolishness of the sermon") is short, nice, but maybe less accurate than "ludošcu onoga što se propovijeda" ("foolishness of what is preached").
Of course, NWT is NWT, but it is good to see that new editions has some freedom to choose better solutions than English NWT.
But as you say the Croatian NWT does show unusual signs of independence from the English NWT. Maybe we'll see the translator posting here someday...
looking forward... :))
kifoy
And it may not have been a direct translation from English either?
At least I would translate that passage a bit diffrently from English NWT
Can you check Mathew 23:5 on your 2007 CD as well?
"Kaikki tekonsa he tekevät ihmisten katseltaviksi, sillä he leventävät [raamatunlauseita sisältävät] kotelot, joita
he käyttävät suojelusesineinä, ja suurentavat vaatteittensa reunukset."
god natt
Markku
Can you check Mathew 23:5 on your 2007 CD as well?"Kaikki tekonsa he tekevät ihmisten katseltaviksi, sillä he leventävät [raamatunlauseita sisältävät] kotelot, joita
he käyttävät suojelusesineinä, ja suurentavat vaatteittensa reunukset."
Thank you, Markku.
Interesting. So they keep the "harmless" brackets, but lose the more controversial ones?
Mathew 23:5 is the only verse with brackets that I've been able to find in my NWT so far. If you find another, please let me know
kifoy
Here OT refers to two years, but NT refers to forty:
1 Sam. 13:1
Saul oli [?] vuoden ikäinen alkaessaan hallita, ja hän hallitsi Israelia kaksi vuotta.
Saul was [?] years old when he began to reign, and for two years he reigned over Israel.
Acts 13:21
Mutta siitä lähtien he vaativat kuningasta, ja Jumala antoi heille Saulin, Kisin pojan, miehen Benjaminin heimosta, neljäksikymmeneksi vuodeksi.
But from then on they demanded a king, and God gave them Saul son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.
I know that this is because of differing manuscripts, but still I cannot see why they chose to contradict with the lenght of Saul's reign?
Markku
