by cognac 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
Ok, so when do you think this scripture had it's fulfillment?
(I figured it was either 33 C.E. or 70 C.E. but still have more research to do on the subject...)
3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
Ok, so when do you think this scripture had it's fulfillment?
(I figured it was either 33 C.E. or 70 C.E. but still have more research to do on the subject...)
This is still future.
ch 23 was fulfilled in 70ce. Ch 24 is all future.
it can not have been fulfilled in 70ce...as Matt 24;21 says in repsonse to their question that such a thing a not happened since the world's beginning nor would ever occur again. 70ce simply does not match this. 70ce was dealt with in the prior chapter
hmmm, ok...
Well, in Mark Jesus talks about coming in his kingdom and that some people wouldn't die before that happened...
The society states that was Jesus transfiguration. I don't believe that...
That's why I thought it must have come in either 33 C.E. or 70 C.E...
I would agree that the apocalyptic predictions in the synoptic gospels (and Revelation), to the extent that they predated the destruction of Jerusalem, were not fulfilled in AD 70. I agree that the historical facts bear this out. But this is entirely different from using the hindsight of history to claim that, on account of what actually happened, that the author could not have meant what the text says. That is an eisegetical approach to reading the text, rather than letting the literary construction and expression in the text determine what it means. I submit that if you forget about the hindsight of history and just go with what it says on its own terms, there is no way you would conclude that the apocalyptic scenario pertains to the distant future....indeed, you would form the exact opposite conclusion. A reading that projects the expectations into the distant future would have to minimize all the data that contradict this interpreation motivated by external, eisegetical concerns.
I understand the motive involved in these re-readings of the biblical texts. If they were not fulfilled in the past, they must be fulfilled in the future -- even if it is two thousand years later. I do recognize the desire to handle the text in this way. But imho such a reading of the text really misses what it actually says.
cognac....The transfiguration interpretation is popular in apologetic and evangelical circles (as it avoids the difficulty otherwise posed by the text), but it is rejected by critical scholars who recognize the structure and eschatology of the passage. First of all, the chapter/verse division is misleading because Mark 9:1 really belongs with the preceding Way of the Cross pericope in 8:34-38, not with the Transfiguration narrative in 9:2-13. The preceding verse shows that this coming of the kingdom of God is the parousia: "Whoever is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation will the Son of Man also be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels" (8:38). The description of the parousia in Mark 13 is along the same lines:
"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark 13:26-27).
The eschatological discourse in ch. 13, given after the transfiguration, looks ahead to the future judgment (i.e. Judgment Day), and the language is based on Daniel 7 in which the Son of Man figure comes on the clouds to execute judgment on the nations. The same Son of Man language occurs in Mark 14:62, contextualized at Jesus' trial (after the transfiguration in the narrative) which similarly looks ahead to the future: "You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven". Note also that dunamis "power" occurs in all three texts here, Mark 9:1, 13:26, 14:62, as accompanying the coming of the Son of Man. And notice also that Jesus is here talking not to his disciples but to those responsible for judging him, and he is telling them that they will personally witness the coming of the Son of Man who will, in turn, judge them for what they are doing right then and there (cf. Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he is coming amid the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"). Third, the language in 9:1 is inappropriate for the transfiguration. It is most unlikely that someone would say with such a solemn expression as "Truly I say to you" that some people listening to him will actually be alive in six days' time. It is hardly unusual by any stretch of the imagination that people listening to Jesus would live longer than a week. Furthermore, the arrival of God's rule "with power" implies things that were not realized in the temporary vision of the glorified Jesus, particularly the judgment of the nations, as the source OT text implies: "He [the "Son of Man"] was given authority, glory and power, all peoples, nations, and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed" (Daniel 7:14). The reference to the kingdom of God coming with power is an allusion to this verse. Fourth, the use of Mark 8:38-9:1 by the author of Matthew follows the same understanding:
"For the Son of Man is to come with the angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:27-28).
Notice how this parallel makes the parousia understanding more explicit. The addition of a clause referring explicitly to judgment links this passage to such eschatological texts as Matthew 8:11-12, 13:41-43, 18:9, 22:1-13, 24:45-51, 25:24-30, 25:31-46. We read in 13:41, for instance, that "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil". This scenario is also played out in the judgment scene in 25:31-46. The language here is paralleled also in Revelation 22:12, which relates it to the coming parousia: "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will repay everyone according to what he has done". The Matthean parallel to Mark 9:1 (i.e. Matthew 16:28), moreover, refers to the coming of the Son of Man in his kingdom, linking the two adjacent verses even closer together. Again, in no sense was there a judgment of humanity and delegation of reward and punishment (cf. Matthew 25:46) in the transfiguration.
Leo ~
I see what you are saying... I have a few questions though... (Hope I'm not driving you nuts...)
1. Didn't Jesus come in the clouds in 33 C.E.?
2. If that is the case, wouldn't the fulfillment have taken place then?
cognac:
So, if this had its fulfillment in 70 C.E. then Jesus started ruling then?
Let's consult the Watchtower Library.
Knowledge p. 96, par. 15:
Prophetically referring to Jesus as “Lord,” King David said: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’” (Psalm 110:1; compare Acts 2:34-36.) This prophecy indicates that Jesus’ rulership would not begin immediately after his ascension to heaven. Rather, he would wait at God’s right hand. (Hebrews 10:12, 13) How long would this waiting go on? When would his rulership begin? The Bible helps us to find the answers.
OK, so let's read the Bible and find those answers. Let's start with Hebrews 10:12-13, that was just referred to.
When did Jesus start waiting? (Luke 22:69, Hebr 10:12-13)
For how long should Jesus wait? (Psalm 110:1, Acts 2:34-35, Hebr 10:12-13)
What is Jesus doing while waiting for this? (1 Cor 15:25)
Let's repeat: When did he start doing this? Was it in 1914? (Luke 22:69, Hebr 10:12-13)
Did his waiting end in 1914? (1 Cor 15:25-26. Was death brought to nothing in 1914?)
What will happen to Jesus' kingdom as soon as he stops waiting? Who will then become all things (including king) to everyone? (1 Cor 15:28)
Based on the Bible, is Jesus king during or after waiting?
Who is king today, and for how long has he been king?
cognac....I don't know of any text or tradition that connects the parousia to the "ascension" of Luke-Acts, if that is what you are referring to. It is true that in Pauline and Lukan theology, the glorification of Jesus occurred in the resurrection -- such that he sits at the right hand of God. But for Paul, the parousia was still future, and the cloud-borne ascension for Luke was more of a departure from the earthly sphere than a coming (rather, it was followed by the coming of the Holy Spirit in the earthly sphere, i.e. at Pentacost). Although Jesus was glorified in his resurrection, Paul still looked to the future for the eschatological judgment and bestowal of reward that was associated with the future coming of the Lord (cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2:8, Romans 2:5, 14:10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, etc.), and in no sense is the final and universal coming in judgment -- in the sense of Mark and Matthew (e.g. wars, the abomination of desolation in the Temple, persecution of Jesus' followers, the "Last Trumpet" and the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, followed by the resurrection of the dead and eschatological judgment) -- known from what happened at the time of Jesus' resurrection and glorification.
1. Based on the Bible, is Jesus king during or after waiting?
2. Who is king today, and for how long has he been king?
1. 1 Cor.15: 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.
2. Jesus - since 33 C.E.
