Festering Helplessness

by indireneed 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • indireneed
    indireneed

    I thought I would respond to a few of your comments . . . I really appreciate all the support that I feel, as well as enjoy hearing other people's opionions.

    TR: I don't really see a need for divorce just yet. We actually just married recently, and it was because of very stressful times (due to a rapidly changing world for her) that she became involved again with the JWs (her parents were JWs but then her father left and her mother was 'tossed'), so I feel partially responsible. We still have good times together, and things have calmed to a dull roar, and we don't have kids. I also don't plan on having kids until something is resolved. Maybe that means divorce. But not now.

    Mytelecom1: Ha Ha. No Thanks. I endured almost a year of meetings, studying and snickering. For about a month it was interesting - a new take on religion. But then, wham, I learned about the 'remnant' and the 'governing body'. What CRAP.

    Pettygrudger: We seem to average one heart-wrenching discussions a week. Does she manipulate me? Yes. But I allow her to. Will I continue to? No. I made a stand, told her my feelings and now am phasing myself out of any contact with her JW friends. It's actually not too bad - we each have our own space. Now, it develops in one way or another. Either she slowly realizes that her religion is the same as any other, or she starts to hate me or I start to hate her.

    SixofNine: Thanks. Sometimes it really sucks. Sometimes it doesn't seem to quite so much.

    You Know: The end of the world, huh? Well, I've been looking forward to answering your apocalyptic prophecy. My friend, I don't deny that humans are animals and that they are cruising for a bruising. I don't deny that humans don't seem to be making much progress. I don't deny that there should be a God to save those who deserve to be saved.

    The world is quickly moving toward another showdown. I read the newspapers, and I well understand the dynamics of the situation. In fact, I fear many things for the future. I feel ashamed sometimes to be an American, and at other times very proud. I think the US will change now, they will either 'shit or get off the pot'. Which is better? I don't know.

    Can Osama nuke us? Maybe. Could it cause an 'armageddon' and destroy humans? Maybe. Does that mean there must be a God? Nope.

    Do you realize that every religion since mankind started padding around on his apelike hands has talked about the coming end? You probably believe its all inspired by that damn Babylon, whore of all time. Well, my friend, take a look at archaeology, paleontology and geology and tell me - does the Watchtower give you the whole story? Yes, there are parts of the Bible that are accurate, but the story just ain't all there, man. Every religion has the same story line, but this doesn't mean it all comes from the real story. Mayans, Aztecs, Christians, Jews, Ammorites, Ammonites, Chinese - they all had their own myth of the end. In fact, our good friend Nostradamus has a pretty good record too.

    So, does this mean that one of these religions is right and the others are wrong? Nope. That's a logical fallacy.

    You see, humans reason. And humans learn. Humans understand. Confucius and Budda, they didn't want to be Gods. They were philosophers. So were Paul, Moses and the crew. But somehow, over time, what they said was turned into God, and they were at times deified too. The things they wrote make sense, because they get at the heart of the matter. How can humans control their animal side? How can they stop destroying themselves?

    Like they said in the Matrix. We're a virus, not a mammal. We destroy. And it will end us one day. We don't need a God to destroy us or protect us. We are given the gift by evolution or God or by ourselves to reason. And that makes life harder, because there is good and bad. I don't think its fair that some die and others live, but we all run the same risks. Will we destroy the earth? Nope. Not possible. We will destroy ourselves and the earth will take a new form. We're small, small things.

    I understand that you want to reach for something higher up to save you for your self-punishing ways. But, hey, grow up. Realize that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong. And, as your Bible says, if you teach others the wrong way, you'll get it ten times as worse in the end. What if God is Jesus? Uh oh. You're really in for it. You destroyed the message, worshipped the wrong God, and spread your infection to millions.

    Dude. That would suck.

    Sorry for the rant. Just pissed me off.

  • ZazuWitts
    ZazuWitts

    Indireneed,

    Well, Indi, my sincere sympathies are with you. It's probably too late to prevent her upcoming dunking. So, these are just thoughts for you to consider. You can take your time and see how this affects your marriage. In the meantime be sure to check out the Freeminds site located at the bottom of this forum. Randy has soom good info regarding how to appeal to people such as your wife.

    There may come a time in the future, when you could use some of his suggestions more effectively, than at the present time. Perhaps when she becomes weary of the routine imposed on her, or when troubling events happen withn the congregation. Always, take it slowly, maybe just asking her opinion on some question you have, asking her to research it.

    As to your own family and the holidays, I would go right ahead and participate with them. Let her know your intentions ahead of time, suggest she make her own plans on those days. Then go and enjoy the day's activities.
    But, don't buy in to her possible complaints about not spending the day with her...when she decided to return to the control of the organization, she, so to speak, violated your expectations of a united family life.

    Well, just my thoughts, but please remember to proceed slowly re 'enlightning' her, have a plan, JW's generally expect an all out attack, and feel smugly persecuted by opposters, as they are inculcated to believe this marks them as true believers under Satan's attack.

    The best to you, and please keep us informed as your sorry situation plays out.

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Indireneed,

    If your wife is just getting baptized this weekend, she is probably infatuated with "spiritual paradise." If you love her very much and are a patient man, perhaps you can wait until the infatuation subsides and she begins to see beyond the surface of the Jehovah's Witnesses she knows. Perhaps the quickest way for her to see the underside of "paradise" is for you to encourage her to work for a business owned by one of Jehovah's Witnesses, with lots of Jehovah's Witnesses as employees. That will be an eye-opener.

    If you can stomach it, perhaps you can take on the role of the interested mate and request a study. Make sure she is included in the study and ask some of the questions that truly disturb you in a noncombative way. At this point, she probably thinks that the Society has neat and tidy answers to everything. To see a study conductor squirm and hedge difficult questions will perhaps encourage her to grapple with these questions herself. Maybe she will research them in an effort to try to help you.

    Read what she's reading and ask questions about it. Over and over, the Watchtower Society condemns itself by its own words. Watchtower history is especially good fodder--the failed predictions, Beth Sarim, warnings against vaccinations, waffling viewpoints on many subjects. Judge Rutherford is an especially colorful character. This article from the San Diego Sun of March 15, 1930 is one of my favorites:

    http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20010204&Category=HISTORY2&ArtNo=204012&Ref=AR

    Try to find out why she is so drawn to this religion. Is she afraid of death? Is she looking for structure? Does she need the security of sure answers? To feel that she belongs to a loving group? Understanding her motivation is a big step in helping her.

    In a relationship, you hope that you and your partner will grow in similar directions. Sometimes one partner lags behind for awhile but eventually catches up. Sometimes people grow in different directions and cannot reconcile their different points of view. Only time will tell what is true in your case. Whatever happens, it does not negate the love you and your wife have felt for one another or the good moments you've shared. It is very painful when your paths diverge, I know.

    Please take care of yourself. You have to have your own oxygen mask on first if you want to help your wife.

    Ginny

  • myMichelle
    myMichelle

    Hi Indireneed,

    Sounds like you're in the place I was two years ago.

    My husband was baptized in Dec 1999, and I found out about it 41 hours prior and only by chance then, he wasn't going to tell me. I had spent months prior researching the Org and trying to share some interesting information with him, but my concerns were brushed off or met with anger. I was just caught up in hysterics or had "ulterior motives" and was persecuting him. Regardless of how I pleaded with him to postpone a few months, he went ahead and took the plunge.

    Then eight months later, for reasons still unknown to me he started to read Crisis of Conscience. His attendance started slipping, and three months later he was ready to walk away from the organization, but now he couldn't. His mom, sister and her family are all JW and he would be jeopardizing his relationship with them if he were to be DF'd or DA. He's working on the gradual fading, but he has some gung-ho Society men at his KH and they aren't making it easy.

    It is a rocky road, and I think having kids made it rockier, your post sounds like you don't have that to contend with. If you don't mind me saying, there could be some other things going on in your marriage that help lead to this situation. There was in mine, things I was totally unaware of until my husband's involvement and subsquent arguments brought them out. Maybe our dealing with those issues helped him reach the point where he could examine his religious decisions, I don't know.

    Well, vent away and I hope you find some useful advise and ideas to take away from the board.

    Good luck,
    Michelle

  • myMichelle
    myMichelle

    Me again. I just read Ginny's post about reading what your wife is reading. I just got a WT delivered to my house the Dec 15th one I think and in the back in/by the questions from readers (can't remember if it was the question or on the page before/after), it talked about a JW wife married to an unbeliever and the holidays. It may be helpful.

    Michelle

    PS It is a constant source of amusement to me when I compare the amount of advise the WTS gives JW wives with nonJW husbands versus JW husbands with nonJW wives. Just chuckled when I read the article because there was once again, zero advise for the JW husbands, poor guys....

  • indireneed
    indireneed

    It’s really good to read all of your advice. It’s always a surprise to hear from people who have undergone the same things as me . . . but I guess it shouldn’t be that surprising!

    Lisa: I have often thought about sending her to be un-brainwashed. But I’m afraid that would only set me up as the villain. While I would feel vindicated, somehow I always thought reasoning would work. By the way, I’m 26 and she’s 23. Sometimes I think that maybe she’s just ‘growing up’ and needs this leg-up when she matures.

    Nathan: Your advice is solid and true. But, unfortunately, I may talk the talk but I don’t necessarily walk the walk of capitalism. While unbridled greed is great, I also believe there are other, not able to be valued purposes. I stay because its 50% my duty, 25% I think it’ll get better someday and 25% wait to see. What can I say? I’m a man. I love my wife, and I used to imagine getting old together. But if life gets miserable, I can walk away and blame her for it to myself. I’ve found that men have that gift – it’s never our fault.

    Zazu: I have spent a lot of time going through Freeminds. I’ve probably read 50% of the material, and it is what really woke me up to the deprivation. It scares me when I read the stuff, but I know it’s a good education. I try to work doubts into our conversations, but she needs to see the seemy underbelly for herself. And she will. If those articles are true, she will. And then, she’ll choose between foolishness, sanity and me. She has always been excitable about things and then it wears off. I am hoping for more of that! Plus, I am going to spend holidays with my family. And I’ll tell her how nice it is. And I’ll not rub it in . . . I’ll never ask her again to go with me – we’ve been down that road. But someday, maybe she will. And if she does, it’s time to kick some crap WT ass.

    Ginny: Thanks for the advice. One of my setbacks is the strong congregation where we are. There are actually good, caring elders who protect her. But we’re moving in a few months, and the new place will likely be less solid and will have more of the bad . . . That should accelerate things. I’ve had the study, and I’ve asked the tough questions, but she accepts her answers without really listening. She only sees one side. I hope that changes. I will try to keep reading her articles though. I had stopped, but I’m going to get back into it. It’s a good idea . . . it will enliven ‘debates’.

    Michelle: You are likely right – it comes from other directions. And to tell you the truth, we have been working them out. Our case has many twists and turns, but we’re coming to grips. That’s why I hope that things change, and not in too long. Our life will soon settle, our happiness will grow apart from religion, and then maybe she won’t need the crutch. Here’s hoping. Thanks for the article . . . I’m going to check it out when I get home!

    Hmmmph. I decided a long time ago to get away from religion. Then my wife made me peek back at it again . . . but man, it’s the same crap as ever!

  • nytelecom1
    nytelecom1

    ldh wrote

    Posters you may wish to ignore include FredHall, YouKnow, NYTelecom.

    are the bitter antis shunning on the net......awww..

  • Grout
    Grout

    NYT, don't you realize how desperate you sound?

  • larc
    larc

    indi,

    In your last post, you mentioned debates. I would avoid debates. I would plant seeds of doubt, one at a time, and let her give an explaination, if she can.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy indi,

    Welcome to our forum - the best place to vent. We all do it, a little or a lot.

    The latest point of friction is holidays. My family has a strong connection, especially at Christmas. She of course refuses to go, but then leaves me to 'decide' between my family and my wife. She gives me guilt trips about making her go to meeting alone, while I listen to her tell me why she can never go to a bar again, why she doesn't want to see my parents, why she'll never attend a family event on a holiday. Meanwhile, she makes ample use of the holiday seasons to visit her family . . . Funny, isn't it?

    There is a new article in back of recent Watchtower or Awake - showing a husband talking to his wife - and it's about mostly wives dealing with "worldly" husbands, particularily during the holidays.

    The gist of the article was - do what your husband wants because only the "christian jw" knows what is in her heart. Things stated were shopping for husband, making meals that he wanted, visiting his family when he wanted, and participating so jw doesn't look like a total loon specifically during all holidays.

    I received this mag. within the last week. Will try to find it when I get to work tomorrow. Then, quietly & discreetly, ask her to bring that specific article out for both of you to study over a calm cup of coffee which you made.

    This is her organization giving her freedom - perhaps you just have to help her open her eyes a little. Newbies are weird in any organization, but particularily jw's.

    Btw, if your marriage continues, a fine step in helping her out is to encourage/make (as her godly head) her go with you to as many outings with "worldly" people that you can think of. Be relentless! Picnics, swimming, sports, lectures, concerts. Whatever - get her around people she might make friends with. Fill her time with you and worldly people. She'll be considered a "fringe" member at the KH because she has no husband there with her. Give her many friendships.

    Good luck!

    waiting

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