One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  drew sagan

  For quite some time I have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the Watchtower.
  
  Last night while doing some mindless tasks I think that question may have come to me. The question is:
  
  Using the Bible alone, prove that in 1919 Jesus Christ chose the Watchtower Society to be the cornerstone used restore true worship
  
  Of course the JWs biggest objection to this question is that it involves prophecy, something that according to their understanding "you can only understand after it happens".
  
  But this is why I like to focus on 1919 rather than 1914. While the Watchtower has provided all kinds of (bad) information to support their 1914 doctrine, very little effort has been put into understanding how one gets from 1914 to 1919. The following quote shows some of their "reasoning" on this subject:

  *** re chap. 6 p. 32 Unlocking a Sacred Secret ***
  
  Jesus was baptized and anointed as King-Designate at the Jordan River about October 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in 33 C.E., he came to Jerusalem’s temple and threw out those who were making it a cave of robbers. There appears to be a parallel to this in the three-and-a-half-year period from Jesus’ enthronement in the heavens in October 1914 until his coming to inspect professed Christians as judgment began with the house of God. (Matthew 21:12, 13; 1 Peter 4:17) Early in 1918 the Kingdom activity of Jehovah’s people met with great opposition. It was a time of testing earth wide, and fearful ones were sifted out. In May 1918 Christendom’s clergy instigated the imprisonment of officials of the Watch Tower Society, but nine months later these were released. Later, the false charges against them were dropped. From 1919 the organization of God’s people, tried and refined, moved zealously forward to proclaim Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus as the hope for mankind.—Malachi 3:1-3.
  
  As Jesus began his inspection in 1918, the clergy of Christendom no doubt received an adverse judgment. Not only had they raised up persecution against God’s people but they had also incurred heavy bloodguilt by supporting the contending nations during the first world war. (Revelation 18:21, 24) Those clergymen then placed their hope in the man-made League of Nations. Along with the entire world empire of false religion, Christendom had fallen completely from God’s favor by 1919. -Bold Added

  They take the three and a half years of Jesus ministry and use that to go from 1914 to 1918! The phrase "There appears to be a parallel" is used, but nothing is provided to describe how this is.
  
  I have long thought that this has to be one of their most strained and down right embarrassing teachings. It shows how desperate they are to make the world revolve around their religion.
  
  For me, the next time I see a JW I think I'm going to give them this challenge. Putting in the form of a challenge makes it work the best IMO. They love to say that they can answer any question using "the Bible alone". I think such a method could really great.
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  worf

  Good one Drew.

  I challenge the jdumbs when I see them in 'streetwork', or when they come to my door.

  I'm going to use your question. I know it will throw their circuits off.

  Thanks.

  Worf
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  OnTheWayOut

  While these questions are good, most JW's will not bother to tackle them.

  They just make an attempt like this:
  
  Clearly, the sign was fulfilled in 1914, with the start of The Great War.
  Clearly, the Revelation Grand Climax book shows that Jehovah's people
  were still captive to Babylon the Great for awhile and were invigorated
  to proclaim the kingdom in 1919 at the release from prison of the
  Governing Body. (Don't present any facts that contradict any of that or
  else you are just the Evil Slave.)
  While I cannot explain it from the Bible, others can. We have these
  regular meetings and studies of the Bible that can help you to learn how
  it is so. Just give us all of your free time and let us suck you into the cult
  and you will know how all this happened in the early part of the last days.
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  drew sagan

  While these questions are good, most JW's will not bother to tackle them.

  I understand your cynicism. There are a good amount of JWs that will never bother to answer any questions. This fact in itself though doesn't stop me continuing to think about better ways to approach them. I personally have had some minor successes in talking with JWs and continue to think about how to be more effective.
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  Awakened07

  It's hard to 'stump' them on doctrine; they usually can come up with some explanation. I'm not sure I would have felt stumped by this back when I was a JW.

  Obviously, I wouldn't have been able to show it using only the Bible, so in that sense I would be stumped. You could quote literature that says they only believe the Bible, as you say. But back then, I would probably at least have justified it to myself; that based on what I already believed and had learned, the FDS are the modern day 'chosen people', and as such are those who should interpret the Bible. I would probably have thrown in the passages that say that "it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." (Jer. 10:23) and “no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.” (2Pe. 1:20, 21) After some mental gymnastics, I would conclude that the GB/FDS are needed to understand scripture, and that if they say it is so, it is so.

  It would require some circular logic and intellectual dishonesty, no doubt, but circular logic and intellectual dishonesty is what it's all based on anyway.

  That said, I wouldn't say you shouldn't try to use this, because it is a rather good argument especially when held up against their own literature which says the Bible "interprets itself". Just saying that all this is so ingrained in them that they will find a way to explain it away. But it will on the other hand probably reach some of them, or leave a doubt way back in their mind which may surface later.

  It should be added that this exact example (and most of the rest of the Climax book) was so outlandish that even when I was a "devout" JW, I had a hard time swallowing it. Come to think of it, I think that book was one of the reasons I had my first doubts.
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  drew sagan

  Awakened07, you raise some interesting questions about what the JW responses could be that I'd like to comment on. You said:

  Obviously, I wouldn't have been able to show it using only the Bible, so in that sense I would be stumped. You could quote literature that says they only believe the Bible, as you say. But back then, I would probably at least have justified it to myself; that based on what I already believed and had learned, the FDS are the modern day 'chosen people', and as such are those who should interpret the Bible. I would probably have thrown in the passages that say that "it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." (Jer. 10:23) and “no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.” (2Pe. 1:20, 21) After some mental gymnastics, I would conclude that the GB/FDS are needed to understand scripture, and that if they say it is so, it is so.

  I think that there needs to be a division drawn between two differant things that are often mixed togeather.

  The response you gave I believe would be pretty typicial. After being asked such a question the Witness would have no choice but to begin to talk about how we need somebody to teach us. But I believe that the question I raised actually has little to do with whether or not it is proper for people to always have teachers.

  The key I believe is not religoius authority, rather it is Watchtower history as a necessary component to understanding the Bible. Once it is established that this question cannot be answered without refering to Watchtower History, a new line is drawn. No longer can the Witness claim to believe anything but the Bible. There is now a secondary component needed to interpret scripture fully. That compnent is Watchtower history.

  A good follow up question would be "is it possible for somebody living today to understand the Bible apart from Watchtower history?" I believe this is a key question. While on the one hand the Watchtower continues to promote the myth that they believe nothing but the bible, they also continue to promote the belief that a full understanding of the Bible can only be reached by having access to their religions history.

  If I was talking to a JW I would first ask them if they believe nothing but the Bible. They of course would say yes. They may even bring this point up by themselves if you ask them "what do you believe?". I then would ask them my original question as stated above. I then would try to see if they would accept the proposition that one can only understand the Bible fully if they have Watchtower history to refer to. I then would ask why they falsely stated that they use nothing but the Bible when it is very that they have added an extra component (Watchtower history).
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  Gregor

  and then ask, "What were the International Bible Students teaching in 1919 that is still taught today ?"
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  Awakened07

  If I was talking to a JW I would first get them to say that they believe nothing but the Bible. I then would ask them my original question as stated above. I then would try to see if they would accept the proposition that one can only understand the Bible fully if they have Watchtower history to refer to. I then would ask why they falsely stated that they use nothing but the Bible when it is very that they have added an extra component (Watchtower history).

  -This seems like a plan, and should work.

  But be advised that they see their history as being connected to the biblical history; that they are just a continuation of it in a way. That there always were 'Jehovah's Witnesses' around. So with at least some, you may encounter the argument that biblical history and JW history is part of the same.

  Not trying to be difficult here, I just want to prepare you for whatever counter arguments you may meet.
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  drew sagan

  But be advised that they see their history as being connected to the biblical history; that they are just a continuation of it in a way. That there always were 'Jehovah's Witnesses' around. So with at least some, you may encounter the argument that biblical history and JW history is part of the same.

  Not trying to be difficult here, I just want to prepare you for whatever counter arguments you may meet

  Don't worry about being difficult. I'm glad you brought it up

  Doesn't the idea that they where divinely appointed in 1919 kind of kill this argument? What would be the point of them being approved and appointed in 1918/1919 if they simply where a continuation of true believrs that stretches back to pentecost?

  What reason would Jesus have to inspect and appoint the true believers if they were always there? Their teaching kind of depends upon the idea that there was a break in the chain, at least in the sense of an organization being on earth.
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  still_in74

  It should be added that this exact example (and most of the rest of the Climax book) was so outlandish that even when I was a "devout" JW, I had a hard time swallowing it. Come to think of it, I think that book was one of the reasons I had my first doubts.

  I have missed more Revelation studies than I have been to this time around. I am physically ill sitting there. People ramble off "comments" that they dont even understand and the conductor just says "good, good" and moves on.
  The more I read this book the more I see how scriptures are so twisted and manipulated. You start out reading a scripture, and then over 4 or 5 paragraphs all those little "quotations" are added in - you know the ones, where the WTS quotes little snippets of scriptures that may or may not have anything to do with what your talking about... ? Ya, those ones. Then the mindless hals-asleep reader thinks that real scriptures are being cited to support the line of logic but in reality you are just being walked down a path that slowly changes direction without you even realizing it.
  Little interjections like "recall a similar situation with..." and: "this reminds us of ...."
  By the time you are done you are no where near where you started and the whole room is nodding their heads in appreciation the revealed truths!

  Sorry if I am hi-jacking but I made this comment in another post about a rev. study ---- I have not been to one since this...

  THIS IS WHERE I JUST SAT THERE STUNNED... THE REALIZATION THAT THIS SCRIPTURE HAD BEEN TWISTED TO THE POINT OF COMPLETE NON-RECOGNITION.
  
  JOHN SAID- And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1) AND And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.” (Revelation 14:2, 3)
  
  
  YET WE ARE TO BELIEVE THATTHE 144K WERE NOT REALLY THERE, BUT THERE FIGURATIVELY IN THAT THEY WERE DEFINITELY GOING TO BE THERE IN A HUNDRED YEARS OR MORE. PLUS, THEY ARENT REALLY ALL SINGING THE SONG IN HEAVEN BUTSOME OF THEM ARE ON EARTH, SOME IN HEAVEN, SOME POSSIBLY NOT EVEN BORN YET,BUT THESE ARE OR WILL EVENTUALLY SING ON EARTH WITH AHEAVENLY LIFE IN VIEWSO...
  
  
  THEREFORE THEY ARE SYMBOLICALLY ALREADY IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS SINGING BEFORE THEMSELVES (THE ELDERS) EVENTHOUGH THEY ARENT THERE YET !!!! ???

  This book has helped me to appreciate how much "guess work" goes into "new light" -- but what do you expect from ego-maniacs like Rutherford and Franz??