by Witness 007 60 Replies latest jw experiences
falls on those who claim that god exists, to prove his/her/its existence. The burden of proof does not fall on those who don't believe in god, to prove that god doesn't exist.
So if you found a perfectly manicured garden and couldn't find a gardener, you would assume one didn't exhist? I say that seeing all God has created is evidence in itsself.
I also agree it depends on the nature of the religion one joins, not all religions are tightly controlling eploitative and twisted like the JWs, if you can call them a religion because they seem to operate as a commercial organisation under the guise of religion.
Some people have strong spiritual inclinations and desires that need a religion to function as their vehicle. Other people prefer not to have anything interfering with their instinctive nature and to live exclusively for the here and now.
Witness,
Not all organised religion is classed as "cult".
Personally I like to use cult evaluation scales to assess a group. Was it Milner who did the 8 point cult scale? I forget.
As Satanus said, if you are part of a group who allow you to make your own decisions, who allow you to hold dissenting views (without bad consequences), who don't demand obedience to a set of their rules (or you risk being thrown out of the group), who encourage you to read outside of the religion and who don't teach there is only "one way" - then I'd say you can safely say you are not in a cult.
My pagan group was not a cult but it was what you could term "organised religion"
Sirona
What F##king difference does it make? Some people need structure, some need faith in something more than them selves. Some don't. SO WHAT!!!!
HAVEN'T WE LEARNED ANYTHING ABOUT TOLERANCE?!!! I believe in God you don't, I don't believe in God you do. WHATEVER!!!!! Don't get me wrong. I am interested in peoples stories, but I see no need to influence anyone through opinionated arrogance. I've had my fill of that, thank you very much.
I'm with mouthy, we should play nice. Sorry, just having a bad day.
What's with Ex-Jw's who join another religion?
What's it to you?
Everyone here has the freedom to join a religion - or not - if they please, and no one here is under obligation to explain themselves to anyone.
W
To reneeisorym,
I respect your opinion, but your example is the same type of non-sequitor that religion uses to indoctrinate people with the god concept.
First of all, you can find out who the gardener is, and see him/her, if you really want to. If not, there are plenty of other gardeners who are constantly seen doing the same work. So even if you didn't find that particular gardener, you have living examples of other gardeners who you can see, hear, feel, smell (if you if you got close enough to them), and I won't get into tasting. You can prove the existence of the gardener.
But you still can't prove the existence of god. You do not have living examples of other gods that you have seen doing some creating, so you can't even rationally assume the existence of the god who supposedly created this planet by using examples of other gods doing the same thing. Because such examples don't exist.
I am not trying to insult you, but your example is a non-sequitor: 'It does not logically follow', my points about the non-existence of god, that preceeded it.
Worf
Hi there worf
I honestly don't think the burden of proof lies with anyone. If I believe and you don't, I don't have to prove anything to you ... It's not up to me or any other person to try to prove anything. It's like I said earlier, it's like art. If an arist paints a picture, he/she doesn't write the message he wanted to say accross the bottom. No, the message is in the painting. Some will see it, some won't.
jelcat
This is kind of addressed here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080225/us_time/americasunfaithfulfaithful Article talks about Americans who change religions - States, in part: An even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny Jehovah's Witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds. That means that two-thirds of the people who told Pew they were raised Jehovah's Witnesses no longer are - yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts. Notes Lugo, "No wonder they have to keep on knocking on doors."
Hey jelcat,
True. if a person chooses to believe in god, thats their choice. If thats what makes them happy.
But, in response to your example, according to religion, god didn't just "paint" or "create", but god also supposedly wrote
a message outlining the purpose of his/her/its creation in sacred books such as the bible or the Koran or whatever sacred book
religious people believe in so that all could see the message. So, respectfully, I don't see how your example adds up.
But the points I made earlier were made as more of a general response to the question of the existence of god.
There simply is no honest, objective proof of the existence of some ethereal god who is out there somewhere or looking down from some place called heaven, as promulgated by religion.
But I agree with you that people are free to believe, or not believe, whatever they want to.
Worf
I was thinking just the opposite, why do so many EX-JWs throw the baby out with the bath water?
