No Bible = No God ???

by Sirona 30 Replies latest jw friends

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  Xrati

  * An ExJW who has doubts about the bible concludes there is no god

  * An atheist points out the bible inconsistencies and as a result says its ridiculous to believe in a god.

  I had a tendency to be an atheist before, after I left the org more than ten years ago. But I kept my mind open. I thought then that if somebody or anything could show me proof that God existed, then I would believe. No one or nothing was able to show me. I found God on my own. He is us. Here is my evidence:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8eigkwmMEo

  If anyone can beat that, just let me know -- PM me. I'm willing to be under fire.
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  PrimateDave

  "No Bible = No God"
  
  For me, personally, yes.
  
  Granted, the Bible and its god have been my only direct frame of reference with respect to organized religion. Other than books that I have read, I have little experience with religion outside the Biblical tradition. And why should I? The proliferation of gods in religions past and present smacks of ignorant human superstition. They appear to all be variations on a theme: Humans attempting to explain the natural world through the lens of dominator cultures. The gods dominate all things. Humans claiming divine rights dominate other humans. Humans dominate nature, leaving behind deserts and wastelands.
  
  This is not to say that indigenous spiritual traditions are without merit. Many indigenous tribal groups developed belief systems that evolved with their cultures and environments over thousands of years, enabling the tribes to live sustainably on their land base. I'm not suggesting that we take up indigenous tribal religions, though. We are now able to work out our own beliefs and values from a much broader knowledge base than was ever before available to humans if we so choose.
  
  For all the petty differences between the major religions, they are at their cores very much alike. Much of the Civilized world promotes a top down, hierarchical view of the Universe, basically systems of domination and control justified by the concept of theism. The gods of the worlds major religions seem more preoccupied with maintaining the established social order while pacifying the masses with promises of heaven, paradise, or nirvana.
  
  What I see in the natural world are bottom up systems of interconnection and cooperation among living things. Instead of gods who made things "just so", I see plants and animals that evolved together over millions of years into a variety of complex ecosystems that exist today.
  
  So, I guess it would be safe to say that I have a problem with the social institution of "god". Whatever the cause of our existence, it is immune to human devotion. We are on our own, and the sooner we learn to cooperate on that basis, the better it will be for the future of the planet and our species.
  
  Dave
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  Sirona

  Much of the Civilized world promotes a top down, hierarchical view of the Universe, basically systems of domination and control justified by the concept of theism. The gods of the worlds major religions seem more preoccupied with maintaining the established social order while pacifying the masses with promises of heaven, paradise, or nirvana.

  It seems easy for you to stick all religions into one basket. There are many religions which do not have this top down idea - and their god is nothing like the one you suggest.

  You ask "why should i?" well I'd suggest you should because you need to educate yourself.

  Sirona
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  diamondblue1974

  What I see in the natural world are bottom up systems of interconnection and cooperation among living things. Instead of gods who made things "just so", I see plants and animals that evolved together over millions of years into a variety of complex ecosystems that exist today.

  This really does depend on a persons view of the divine. Your perspective largely is based on a severely limited concept of God/Divinity being distinctly seperate and omnipotent. I dont see Divinity that way at all and I also believe in evolution.

  My own concept not unlike most Druids is that divinity is not seperate and that we are all interconnected and operate symbiotically.

  There are very few if any hierarchical structures within pagan spiritualities and religions which would appear to solve the problems you describe within many Judaeo Christian religions.

  Gary
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  R.Crusoe

  Any book does not match a single plantlife growing in its season. The life around in its abundance is a book of life!

  Humans have the capacity to establish thier own mind realities! Their own delusions! And they have the capacity to send these into subsequent generations after they are dead! Imprinting, conditioning and indoctrination is rife within our species!

  I listen with as open a mind as I am able any person anyplace with interest and without preconception! But I'm constantly challenged by the degree to which others wish to categorise and stereotype and label me within the reference system of 'people types' they are accustomed to. It seems a natural human default!

  And the categorising comes in all shapes and forms from religious views to moral attitudes to legal precedents and family values etc. In fact this dynamic is even more complex in an individual who adapts (as some humans do much more than others) because not only are some perplexed by ones rapid changes in views but also speculate about what they used to be, sometimes in sinister ways - and ultimatels ridiculously flawed ones - a common human trait!

  So what do I perceive??

  I perceive that I, by example, am living proof that the Bible is NOT the word of God!!

  My own perceptions about people and their perceptions - and vice versa - before my very eyes and with an intention to delve and understand, leave each of us way off the mark due to our different sets of values and willingness to take each other at face value! More importantly to openly express our deepest thoughts to each other is almost impossible if nat actually so!

  Realtime poses massive issues right in my face! In spite of my attempts to overcome inhibitions and all manner of ettiquette (hidden thoughts umbrellad by delusions of 'respect') it is nigh impossible to gather a truth of a persona I am in the presence of!

  And this is within a culture and societal framework I am aware of to some extent, with due regard for all its subliminal spectra of values and expectations mixed in an ever changing soup of integration!

  So what God in his right mind would foist a bunch of words together from a byegone era and give this channel to HUMAN HANDS to pass onto other humans for generations? Would a perfect divinity anticipate or expect each humans perception to be in tune with the unflawed giver of life via such an imperfect administration of universal law?

  It is incomprehensible in the extreme and another example of how humans strive to acheive maximum 'states of delusion' to establish stereotypes and labelling to answer all manner of questions they despise leaving unanswered and to nature!

  We each are proof to ourselves that the Bible is not and cannot be the word of Divinity (any power of god/s/esses)!
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  R.Crusoe

  P.S. Whether God exists or not is utterly non dependant on the existence of human writings!
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  PrimateDave

  Okay, I admit that what I wrote was a bit harsh and too much of a blanket rejection of global religious belief. Sometimes it is difficult to distill thoughts into coherent language.
  
  In recent years I have read a lot about sustainability, societal collapse, permaculture, and neo-primitivism, among other things. It seems to me that the world's major religions are not concerned about Gaia, so much as they are about the stories that reinforce long standing cultural institutions with vested interests. Call it the psychology of previous investment of a religious nature. In other words, they have a hard time thinking outside the book (box).
  
  Perhaps we are arguing definitions. What do we mean by the word God? Everyone has their own personal definition within and without the world's religions. For some it is a word charged with meaning, and for others it is very vague or even unimportant.
  
  Rejecting the Bible was a major personal step in examining how I truly felt about theism as a whole. I am not anti-religion. There are many non-theistic concepts in the world's religions that I appreciate, like the core philosophies of Buddhism. See Nontheism.
  
  From a scientific standpoint I take the viewpoint that until the existence of god can be proven, it does not objectively exist. It is a philosophical argument. For me, it would have made no sense to automatically replace the Biblical god with another deity because I have felt no such need to do so. There was a part of me that was relieved to become a-theistic/non-theistic as the alternative of Dystheism at times appears to represent human culture and natural processes more accurately.
  
  Dave
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  R.Crusoe

  Irreligious ideologies seem to put the human back into religion rather than religion into, and subesequently consuming, the human!

  Rather preserve the inner self from such a plight and enhance it than deliver it, finally ready for life, too late and void of joy!

  A detached human from humanity with no desire to be part of all that is of meaning to it but plainly to let it be!

  I am become spiritual scientist amalgamating an ever increased sense of life without me to the science which observes it.

  I am meaningless to it yet part of it but of no will of my own to be!

  Organisations whether religious (JW) or otherwise in society, have insidious powers to interfere with the thinking of groups of others in ways which render some 'invisible people' in their own life circle. People who are even invisible to themsleves!

  The invisible God of some religions does indeed make some in his own image!

  It is a peculiar place to be and one where belief itself becomes imaginary.
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  LouBelle

  Sirona, I think you hit it on the head when you said

  I certainly don't find the need to look to the bible for information about god.

  And I totally agree - my concept of god has changed dramatically from the BibleGod, plus I haven't picked up a bible in about a year and half and yet my relationship with my god has grown because of the experiences I've had, the fact that I'm open to different takes on this god. I take what I need from the information available and use it for my journey.
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  Sirona

  Dave,

  I agree that the argument depends largely upon what we mean when we say "God".

  Thanks for your clarifications.

  Xena, I assumed you were still a bible believer, for some reason. You post made sense

  Sirona