No problem, Velvetann. I have to go away until later tonight, or tomorrow. If you have any further thoughts or comments, I will be able to respond then.
Anyone have any thoughts about this?
by Connaughty 18 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Connaughty
Hey thanks for your comments. But no one has seen this whole film yet, have they?
How can we make a full judgment on qualifying it into a category before seeing it completely.
Thanks for categorizing the issues that the US school system is experiencing with regards to Creationism, and Evolution. However, my definition of Creation is not specifically the same as what other's views of creationism is about. My views on creation includes Intelligent design.
You know the same thing happened when the 'Sicko" movie came out. Some actually came to the defense of the US for not having a government controlled Health Care system, while other nations were successful in doing so. Michael Moore didn't make the decision in his movie, he just let the viewers decide what they felt was right.
Stein states in the trailer that Darwinism, he may have used evolution, not sure, is the popular choice in the scientific community, and those that disagree, are taking the unpopular route. Some may also loose their status, and jobs for it.
Watch the movie, I think that I am going to enjoy what he has to say. He is tackling a controversal subject. You can see that even on here.
-
inkling
those that disagree, are taking the unpopular route. Some may also loose their status, and jobs for it.
The problem is that the route is "unpopular" not because of scientific closed-mindedness, but because of lack of evidence, and indeed lack of a theory.
ID in NOT a theory. It is a poorly executed criticism of the theory of evolution, masquerading as it's own theory. An ID defender points to a particularly weird and wonderful bit of life, and says: "Ha! how does your theory of evolution explain THAT!" and the evolutionist says: "Uh, well we aren't sure yet. We are working on it and have several models, but the
even most plausible explanation is still in it's embryonic stage." and the IDist says: "Well, you silly man, *I* already have the answer!" "Ok, fair enough: What's your theory of how it happened?" "Magic!" --- See, "god did it" is just as rubbish of an answer as if the scientist was satisfied
with saying: "Well, the laws of nature did it!" Of course you can say that the scientist is indeed correct, but imbuing a name ("The All Powerful Laws of Nature") with mythical powers of causation does NOTHING to forward the cause of actual human understanding! Ok, so maybe god DID do it. How? What natural mechanism did he use, and what proof do
you have of it? Without the "how" added to a mythical "who", by saying "(blank) did it"
without explaining how (blank) DOES anything, you haven't even started doing science! It's like saying: "Natural selection made fish" "How does natural selection work"? "Well, since it's beyond our human comprehension, we have no clue. But it MUST
have done something really cool, because fish are awesome." Saying "your theory is incomplete, so the only explanation is magic"
is GIVING UP. Plain and simple. [inkling] -
Velvetann
Whew this is all to deep for me. I need an interpretor.
No I didn't see the movie. Can we rent it at Block Buster?
I had a big conversation with my boyfriend today about this and now I am totally confused. He is a atheist and believes in Scientific fact not Biblical. I obviously have not had deep thoughts about this before. Now I am very interested in investigating this.
I just didn't want to know anything about anything after I left the JW religion. I was fearful so I blocked out any conversation or thoughts of God, or anything like that. I obviously have been hiding my head in the sand.
I really am finding this Group stimulating and it is opening my mind to investigate and explore and not to be afraid too. hear things
-
Gopher
Connaughty -- The film reached theaters last month, and I didn't see it. This preview showed the tone of the film, and the arguments it would use. There are 7 minutes worth of material in that preview to judge, and I'm sure the film follows the same line of reasoning.
Intelligent Design is just a new variation on creationism. There is absolutely no difference between the two. ID is not a science but a philosophy created mainly to oppose the scientific theory of evolution. As I said before, ID is not testable or falsifiable, so it is not science.
I did see Sicko, and while I agreed with Michael Moore's overall conclusions, he did bring a certain point of view to the film. There wasn't time in his film to fully explore other viewpoints or possible weaknesses of healthcare in those countries he praised. Similarly, in this film, Stein brings his pro-creationism viewpoint to the film, and attempts to create martyrs out of the minority of scientists who happen to share his philosophy. I don't see any indication that he would take time to explore why the theory of evolution is so sound, nor would I expect him to.
However, the type of "science" these pro-Intelligent Design people are promoting isn't science but it is religion, and that's why they're running into a backlash from the traditional scientific community. To me, Stein is using the issue of "freedom of speech" when the real issue is that these ID promoters inserting religious philosophy into science.
-
Gopher
Velvetann, I don't think "Expelled" has been out long enough to be on DVD yet.
If you want to read a primer on the scientific theory of evolution, information is available. You can go online here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
Also there are good books, such as "Evolution: A Beginners Guide" available here: http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Beginners-Guide-Oneworld-Guides/dp/1851683712
Book Description
Covering everything from fossilised dinosaurs to intelligent apes, this is an accessible guide to one of the most important scientific theories of all time. Burt Guttman assumes no prior scientific knowledge on the part of the reader, and explains each of the key ideas and concepts, including natural selection, genetics and the evolution of animal behaviour, in a lively and informative way. Looking ahead to the future of evolutionary theory, and assessing its possible implications for the way we understand morality, human nature and our place in the world, this book provides the perfect starting point for understanding what evolution is and why it matters. -
Pickled
Velvetann, you said that you feel it is obvious that you have been hiding your head in the sand out of fear.
Your head, or your mind, is where all logic and reasoning takes place. When you embrace a religion that insists that you adopt their logic and abandon your own, it creates anxiety. Anxiety is an emotion that started out as a thought. Your normal and natural initial thoughts were to compare your own existing logic with the logic you felt you were required to adopt. That is a built in survival tool; evaluating, comparing. When you began to discover that you were not allowed to do that openly, that’s when the internal anxiety began. When you got far enough down that road of abandoning your own logic and replacing it with theirs, you became dependent on their thoughts. You began to find it difficult at that point to fully engage your own independent thoughts as a human with a mind. You felt guilty if you did as though you were betraying those who insisted that their logic was the only logic you were supposed to have.
That is how a cult works. That is why it takes so long to recover and lose the fear. It takes a while because it is not just a matter of leaving. When you leave you take your same now handicapped brain with you. That can be very scary to wander back out into life again with all of your new mental limitations and no one to tell you what to think anymore. It takes time to regain your senses. It takes time to rebuild your confidence in your own ability to think for yourself. It takes time to recognize day by day that you still have the same thinking abilities you had before you joined the cult. It takes time to be able to recognize once again that you have an identity as an individual apart from the collective group. It takes time to retrain yourself to trust your own thoughts. It takes time to reintroduce your own thoughts to yourself as valid thoughts.
When someone has suffered a brain injury, everyone feels compassion for the one who they know is going to need some time to regain what they once had. When someone comes out of a coma and appears to have recovered physically, there is still that period of time needed to catch up with the rest of the world mentally.
You are no different. Your mind needs compassion as well. I think personally that tucking your head away in the sand for a time was a survival instinct, and isn’t it great that you recognized that and allowed yourself to act on it this time? That’s progress. -
PrimateDave
I forgot to say in my previous post that I did read Michael Behe's book on Intelligent Design, Darwin's Black Box, back in the 1990s when I was still a Witness. At the time I found it very supportive of my belief in Creation, and I enjoyed reading it very much. In fact I would still recommend it to anyone interested in the Intelligent Design debate. Then read the opposing viewpoints. You will be in a far better position to make an informed decision.
I do think anyone with an open mind should look at the information presented by both sides. I have been on both sides. I finally allowed myself to have an open mind and looked at the Theory of Evolution and the criticisms of Intelligent Design. I then changed my point of view.
What I see from the preview of this movie is a biased presentation. Fine. I would watch it very critically, looking for logical fallacies, such as straw man arguments and hidden premises. Movies and documentaries are great for communicating ideas. However, one must really do in-depth research, being very skeptical of any claims made without reliable references. One MUST be an informed consumer of ideas.
Dave -
inkling
In fact I would still recommend it to anyone interested in the Intelligent Design debate. Then read the opposing viewpoints. You will be in a far better position to make an informed decision.
I do think anyone with an open mind should look at the information presented by both sides.I agree completely. Anyone interested in the issue should by all means read
"Darwin's Black Box".Regardless of the validity of the ideas it contained, it is a very important book
in the creation/evolution debate. Highly influential, and I have to say quite well
written.After reading Behe, I recommend Kenneth Miller's "Finding Darwin's God". (http://www.findingdarwinsgod.com/)
Not only is it a rebuttal of Behe, it is also a good example of a fairly
coherent model of Theist Evolution , and as such it less likely to scare off
the doubting faithful.[inkling]