Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses

by JH 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Pahpa
    Pahpa

    It's an old game. One can take Bible verses to prove or to disprove doctrines like the trinity. (Ex.: "I and my father are one." vs. "My father is greater than I.") It largely depends upon the viewpoint of the reader. But the fact that the trinity doctrine took centuries to define should, at least, bring into question just how important that doctrine really is. In the fourth century when the controversy tore the Catholic Church apart the penalty decided by Constantine seemed to be exile for either Arians and Trinitarians. Both were in favor of the emperor and his son at one time or another.

    I agree with Verodico that the earliest Jewish Christians had no concept of the trinity doctrine and that the doctrine slowly developed with the advent of pagan Gentiles coming into the church. This fact again would bring into question the claim that the trinity is the "central doctrine of Christianity." If anything, it bespeaks of the effort of the Gentile leaders to disclaim the Jewish roots of their faith. What better strategy to alienate the Jewish believers than to proclaim Christ as God....something that would be repulsive to any Jew.

  • JH
    JH

    lovelylil, you say that Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament.

    JW's say that the Archangel Michael and Jesus is the same person, so Jesus could never be in front of Michael or talk to him or have a converstation with him.

    Thus, if Jehovah and Jesus are one, they also would never be able to be infront of one another and talk to one another, even less pray to Jehovah, since he would be praying to himself.

  • My Struggle
    My Struggle

    Like 007 said proskyneo can carry the meaning of showing obedience and lowering oneself, ex.2 Samuel 14:4 and 1 Samuel 25:23,24 respectively. Still it is used in the sense that denotes true and full religious worship, which is a proskyneo that is unique and acceptable only to God.

    There are times when God's representatives rejected proskyneo.

    • Acts 10:24,25 "When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man."
    • Revelation19:9,10 "Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb '" And he said to me, "These are true words of God." Then I fell at his feet[the angel that was delivering the message to John] to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." "
    • Revelation 22:8,9 same as above

    If it is ok to accept proskyneo as long as you are a representative of God, why would they reject proskyneo. It only stands to reason that there is a way that proskyneo can be given, even if directed to one of God's representatives, that is not acceptable. This is to say that proskyneo can and does carry a meaning of full and true worship that only God can receive.

    An example of proskyneo that could only be acceptable if directed to God, which is clearly different than proskyneo in the Samuel accounts, is found in Revelation 4:9-11. It says, "And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." The main difference is that they gave God glory, honor, power, and praise for His creation; these things in proskyneo are unique to God.

    I doubt that anyone would not agree that to proskyneo anything other than God in the manner found in Rev. 4:9-11 would be idolatrous.

    If they do not agree and we can proskyneo something other than God in the manner of Rev. chapter 4, how can we tell what is unique about proskyneo directed to God. If we could proskyneo something other than God in the manner of Rev. chapter 4, there would be nothing in proskyneo that could not be given to representatives of God. If this were true no representative would have grounds for rejecting any type of proskyneo. However there was rejection of proskyneo by God's representatives in Acts and Revelation, as cited earlier.

    This same unique manner proskyneo found in Rev. 4:9-11 is found in the next chapter of revelation verses 6-14; though this time Jesus as the Lamb is the object of this proskyneo . It says, "And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen " And the elders fell down and worshiped."

    Notice what the proskyneo toward God involves in chapter 5, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." Then to the Lamb in chapter 4, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." "

    The same things that are unique proskyneo to God are attributed to Jesus, namely glory, honor, and power. Also, these things are not attributed thought the Lamb to God, rather they are attributed directly to both the Lamb and God.

  • real one
    real one

    lil, I agree with you.

  • logic
    logic

    Juar my own opinion, but I think alot of the explanation about the trinity has to do with when Jesus said that he had been given all the power and authority. Just exactly did that mean? And he had been given a name above all other names, what did that mean? And we are to pray in the name of Jesus, does that mean we just use the name and then pray to Jehovah, or do we actually tell Jesus what we want of Jehovah?

    I consider this like a CEO and the managers under him. The pions deal with the managers and the managers deal with the CEO. As far as the scriptures, I leave that to the scholarly of us.

  • real one
    real one

    Jesus says the Father was greater than him because he was on earth as a human he meant in that sense

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I agree with Verodico that the earliest Jewish Christians had no concept of the trinity doctrine and that the doctrine slowly developed with the advent of pagan Gentiles coming into the church.

    I'll agree with you that the doctrine developed over time and was defined more and more precisely culminating in the Athanasian Creed, but the seeds of the Trinity doctrine were very much there from the start. The creedal development was more to define what Christ was not than what Christwas. Ignatius of Antioch was taught by John the Apostle, and is supposed to be one of the little children Jesus took in his arms and blessed. He was an early Jewish Christian. In Antioch, Jewish Christians worshipped cheek by jowl alongside Gentiles. He wrote:

    " Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God"
    "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit"

    Burn

  • real one
    real one

    We can pray to Jesus directly, but to pray to Jehovah we pray through Jesus the mediator

  • My Struggle
    My Struggle

    Veradico,

    Stafford's view is one that is better than the one that presented by the WBTS, but it is still flawed. I have yet to see him give a satisfactory answer in regards to the argument that was presented in my last post. These points were brought out in the White debate and his answers were amusing to say the least. If you the audio of the debate this can be found in White's cross-examination of Stafford.

    Also, I for one could never see myself accepting a henotheist theology as Stafford presents. To me a triune God is more acceptable.

  • JH
    JH

    If Jesus and Jehovah are somewhat equal and both deserve adoration, or if Jesus is Jehovah, then why would it be said about Jesus I Cor 15:28, " 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

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