outaservice
They are both GODs as well..Just that you never hear Jesus be called 'GOD THE FATHER', and you never hear THE FATHER call his son 'his GOD'..therefore..even though Jesus is GOD, he is still not 'THE FATHER'..He has kingship, he has ALL DIETY but that is through his FATHER (is this so hard to believe)..
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
God and Father of Jesus does NOT have a GOD.
John 15:26
26"When the (A)Helper comes, (B)whom I will send to you from the Father, that is (C)the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, (D)He will testify about Me,
Notice there is a Spirit of Truth also, then there many more SPIRITS of Jehovah than just the HOLY SPIRIT
How Many?..i dont know - have to keep counting but i know you can take a look a this verse
The SEVEN Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5)
I'll stick to this verse regarding
I Cor. 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Philippians 2: 5-11
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did NOT COUNT EQUALITY with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
here in Philippians, you see the Paul the apostle stating jesus being 100% man (likeness of men), 100% God (for of God), but yet Paul says that Jesus did not consider himself EQUAL to his FATHER..and at the end every confession to Jesus Christ being our lord is for what, for the GLORY OF GOD who? GOD THE FATHER
Also, in regards to the following verse
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Nowhere here does Jesus say WE ARE ONE "GOD"..One in likeness how then?? lets see what the scriptures tell us
John 17: 11
11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father,keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Some things jump out quickly..one WHO GAVE JESUS name to him? his HOLY FATHER (GOD THE FATHER), then in continuation of the prayer to his FATHER, this is what his request is about the disciples "that they may be one, even as we are one"
also jump to John 17:21
21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Interesting repeat and a continue proceeds in the Gospel of John..
Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses
by JH 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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MOG
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glenster
What I have on that is on pp.4 and 7-10 (next link). Most of the things the
JWs leaders give as deciding in favor of their stance don't decide anything, and
they leave out some pretty important things which are bad for their case. It's
notable you're asking about prayer, starting in the 30's AD for Jesus and which
Paul did for Jesus when he converted, and worship, since they and the Shema were
among the few things used to indicate the one true God in 1st century Judaism.
http://www.freewebs.com/glenster1/gtjbrooklynindex.htmA few of the more notable cases to compare are the ones in which Jesus and
Stephen were threatened with stoning, which they could have stopped by saying
they were/were talking about Michael. Jesus gave a God in Isaiah-type "ego
eimi" and Stephen prayed to Jesus. Jesus was incorporated as the Lord in a
Christian version of the Shema (one God and one Lord).It would have been easy to make sure people thought Jesus was Michael, like by
clearly calling him that anywhere and leaving out the several types of things
mentioned above.Looking at it like a court case, and Christians of later history as witnesses
for it, the mainstream view has the stronger case for what was originally in-
tended. -
JH
It's clear to me that Jesus has a specific role in our salvation. But just like a person that saves you from a car accident, although that person saved you, you won't start praying to that person.
John 17:3 says: This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
Since we need to know both the father and the son, that means just knowing about Jehovah alone won't give us salvation. They work as a pair, and we can't ignore Jesus.
Just like Jesus said in the next verse, John 17:4: I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
Jesus wants to be glorified by his father. That seems to be his only desire, not to be adored nor prayed to.
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lovelylil
Jh,
you made some good points. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. To me it is clear that Jehovah the father and Jesus the son both share the glory and Godship together. As Jesus said, "the father and I are one", using the word meaning "one thing".
Another text that is clear on Christ's divinity is this one;
John 1:17-19
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Here John under inspiration of God refers to Christ as "God the one and only", which clearly shows Jesus' divinity, and yet, said Christ is "at the father's side", showing he is a seperate person".
This is a very difficult concept to grasp especially after being a JW. It took me more than a year to actually "get it". But I could not reconcile many scriptures without accepting Christ's Divinity. So keep up your search for truth. You never know where it will take you.
Ultimately in the end, what matters is that you accept Christ as Lord in your life and as a Christian, walk in his path and imitate his ways. Christ knows all those who belong to him and his church. And by following him, he will lead us to the father.
Peace unto you and all your household, Lilly
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MOG
Lovely Lil
have you read my previous post above in regards to"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
??" -
MOG
In regards specifically to John 1:18 - other translations
Emphatic Diaglott
John 1:18 God no one has seen ever; the only-begotten son, that being in the bosom of the Father,
he has made known.New King James
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [ a ] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
New Century
18 No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, [ a ] and he has shown us what God is like.
American Standard Version
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him
These translations will say "Nobody has Seen God (THE GOD), but through his ONLY BEGOTTN SON (Jesus Christ), he (THE GOD) has shown you what he (THE GOD) is LIKE.
Also this is like saying " I am MARK, but nobody has seen me (Mark), but I (Mark) will send my only SON (Steve), who is an IMAGE (Steve is a copy- not the original) of me (Mark), so that to show YOU (earth beings) what I (Mark) am LIKE
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Pahpa
Paul's words about Christ subjecting himself to God seems clear and simple. (l Co. 15) It takes a strained (and strange) interpretation for trinitarians to try to explain away what is obvious in Paul's letter.
It also should be noted that John 1:18 is one of those texts that the trinitarians have tried hard to convolute. The original greek text reads: ...."the only-begotton God." One can see why the trinitarian translators want to avoid this rendering. They fault other translations for John 1:1 but are shameless with John 1:18.
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lovelylil
MOG,
Yes I did read it. Thanks for pointing it out again. I see you still use the NWT? That bible version has been tampered with and does not accurately translate the new testament scriptures. In particular the ones that deal with the divinity of Christ.
When Jesus said "I and the father are One" - for the term "one" he used the Greek work neuter. This word literally means "one thing". Christ was not saying, nor am I that Jesus is the same person as the Father Jehovah, but rather he and Jehovah are "one thing" - GOD. Christ is the divine son of God and thus is equal in nature, essence, substance, glory and divinity. But he is not the same person as the father.
Since the NWT is tampered with, I prefer another translation for that verse in philippians you pointed out. I will show you that this scripture actually proves my point entirely. Here it is in the NIV Bible,
Philippians 2:5-7
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very natureGod,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Now lets break it down,
verse 5 - "your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus"
Paul was telling the philippians to have the humble attitude that Christ Jesus had and not to consider ourselves more important than others regardless of our position. But to do what is best for others, putting them ahead of ourselves. How do we know this? By reading the surrounding texts. Lets start at verse 1.
Philippians 2:1-4 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and in purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceipt, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others;
Again, who's example should we follow in being humble and putting others interests ahead of our own? Verse 5 says again "your attitude should be the same of that of Christ Jesus".
What did Christ do to humble himself and put others interests ahead of his own so that Paul is telling us here in Philippians we should "have the same attitude" as that as Christ? Paul tells us in verses 6 & 7.
verse 6 - "who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
**The WT has tampered with this verse rendering it "who although he existed in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely that he should be equal to God".
See the KIT book page 868 for the Greek rendering to see that it does say Christ was "being equal to God". There are NO other Bible's that give this awkward translation to this verse. Only the WT does this But even they cannot hide the truth of scripture because if you notice it says about Jesus "although he existed in God's form?" - How can he have existed in God's form and not be equal in Nature to God?
Anyway, lets look again at the NIV translation of this verse since the NWT is inaccurate.
verse 6 - "who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
Here Paul actually reafirms Christ's equality with the Father, for he says in his nature he was equal with God. I have bold faced and underlined this important fact.
Now, Paul says that although he was equal with God, Christ did not consider this equality something to be grasped. What is Paul saying? "grasped" means forcible retained or held. So he is saying that Christ although equal with the father, did not try to retain his position of equality. Just the opposite, he gave up his divine nature and;
verse 7 "but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likenss.
Again, Christ did not try to retain his divine and equal nature with the father. But put our (mankinds) interests first, giving up his divinity and took on the nature of a servant being made in human likenss instead. That is the entire point of this text in Philippians!
This is why this is such a powerful example for us. We are told to imitate Christ's example. If he can give up divinity for others interest, what can we give up that would even come close to that for the good of others? Nothing! We have no position higher and thus we should always treat others as if they are superior to us, humbling ourselves for their good.
In the rest of the chapter, Paul goes on to say he (Christ) not only gave up his divine nature and equal status with the father, humbling himself in the form of man but on top of that humbled himself for us, even to death (verse 8). That is why God the Father exalted Christ (in rank) and gave him the name above "every name" That every knee should bow and confess Christ as Lord. (verses 9-11).
Peace, Lilly
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MOG
actually I use BibleGateway..I never have quoted from NWT
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lovelylil
MOG,
Again good scritpures. Let me ask you about this verse and what it says about Christ Jesus in relation to God the father;
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, NIV
Let me give it to you from other translations as well;
And He is the radiance of Hisglory and the exact representation of His nature, NASB
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, King James
who being [the] effulgence of his glory and [the] expression of his substance, Darby Translation
He is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his being, NWT
All these texts say Jesus is the radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of his being or nature, he is the express image of God's person, the expression of his substance, the reflection of him, correct?
How can that be if Christ was only a man? A man cannot radiate God's glory or nature. Of mankind it says we are made in God's image. but of Christ it says he is the "radiance of God's glory".
When I say Jesus IS God, again I mean in nature. I am not saying Christ is the same person as Jehovah. And yes, I recognize that the father is greater than the son (in position) But in NATURE they are "one thing" - neuter in Greek. Meaning the same thing God, diety, divine. I am using Jesus' own words. "I and the father are one (neuter)"
Again, the Jews who knew the language tried to stone Christ for blashemy because he said he was God's son. He NEVER said he was God the Father and yet the Jews told him "you said you are God's son, making yourself God". John 10:30-33.
Anyway, I'll have to end this discussion here for today because I have a bad cold and I worked the overnight shift last night. I am going to make some tea and then go to bed.
I think I gave all the supporting texts for my position at this time and we will just have to agree to disagree. If I feel better, I will chime in again tomarrow. Thanks all for this great "conversation", and peace to you all. Lilly