edited - double post
I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!
by Witness 007 343 Replies latest jw experiences
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Sirona
Question for those who believe Jesus is not God. (This may have been mentioned but I don't recall it in this thread)
If Jesus is "a god" and Jehovah is "God" - is Jesus a false god or a true god?
Jehovah states that there is no other God besides him. He even states that there is no other saviour besides him.
Other "gods" mentioned in the bible are categorically shown to be "false". So if Jesus is "a god" would that not make him a false god? There is none other apart from Jehovah, according to scripture!
And this:
In the end I think the biggest arguement against the trinity is if you believe the bible is inspired by God because it was not written for scholars that can go into the hidden meaning of words or deeply debate,
Well that is very, very convenient. A scholar proves a biblical point - well you can always argue it wasn't written for scholars.
Sirona
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reniaa
In the end I think the biggest arguement against the trinity is if you believe the bible is inspired by God because it was not written for scholars that can go into the hidden meaning of words or deeply debate,
Well that is very, very convenient. A scholar proves a biblical point - well you can always argue it wasn't written for scholars.
No what a scholar can do is make total gobbledegook sound like facts and blind you with science...
Just because something sounds feasible from a scholar doesn't mean it is, most of the time it's just their opinion and you have to be really careful of that!
Half of the explanations on this thread have been Peoples opinion of what something should mean, the cs lewis stuff is exactly that he goes off in to fiction to describe a way for us to try and understand the trinity,
excert from earlier post of cs-lewis info
Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings - just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal - something more than a person.
this sounds all very credible but it's pure fiction and opinion, it's not facts!
Saying elohim (GOD) can be plural doesn't take away from the fact that the masculine presentation means it was purely used to say one God that is a fact of the hebrew language. but a scholar can pretend that fact doesn't exist and can make you think that pluralising elohim is allowable but any jew could set us straight on that.
Next FACT there are more scriptures that describe jesus and God as separate and jesus as lower than God, than those that if taken alone may make you think hmmm maybe there is something to this trinity thing, So sheer majority vote has the single God belief as winning.
And finally like I said if God wanted us to believe he was a trinity why not just write it, why use description father and son etc that are going to make any person view jesus as his son if they just read the bible for the first time.
I just think if you have to twist scriptures and then your mind into loops to believe in the trinity then alarm bells should be going off, I don't have to twist my mind into believing a father and son are separate it's natural and it's biology.
reniaa
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IP_SEC
LOL@ christians: Quibbling since 120 AD.
Ok let me let you in on the real secret.
Trinitarians: You dont believe in the same god as the Arians.Arians: You dont believe in the same god as the Trinitarians.
See, mystery solved. Yes it is unfortunate that you both call yourselves christians but the man christ is where your similarities in Christology/theology part ways.
This debate is as asinine as Muslims and Jews arguing over the nature of God. They are different gods. Theres no comparing them. Apples to Oranges.
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AK - Jeff
I don't have to twist my mind into believing a father and son are separate it's natural and it's biology.
reniaa
NO - but the WTS had to twist John 1:1 - even using Johannes Greber's New Testament to support such an idea, when it came to the spirit world - of course God and Christ are not flesh and blood are they? And Johannes Greber was an avowed supporter of spiritism. He admitted that spiritism was involved in his translation of his NT.
If the balance of scripture is so clear on the matter, why would this Bible producing company [the WTS] risk it's reputation in support of a textual change of that sort? No - they needed a defining scripture - and John 1:1 became that defining text for them. Scholars the world over have condemned them for such a blatant misrepresentation of the text.
Of course now the correct approach to looking at what scholars say on the matter is an Ad-Hominem against scholars. So who should we trust in the matter? A book publisher who never in it's 130 year history employed a single respected Biblical authority on the linguistics of Bible-translation - or tens of thousands of Bible scholars? Well of course - let's just dis the scholars and hope reality goes away while we dwell in fog?
I imagine that when you find a need for serious surgery you will be happy to consult the 'scholars' who understand the human body and the medical techniques needed to keep you alive. Or you could just dismiss them as wrongly directed and opinionated, and just find someone who still practices blood-letting. Why bother with those who have actually studied the matter?
Jeff
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lovelylil
I agree with reniaa on one point,
The trinity doctrine is not important to our faith. Reniaa, if you look back at my posts you will see I also have some problems with the trinity doctrine. I do though, accept Christ as the divine son of God. My problem hinges on using the term "person" for the Holy Spirit.
I agree with you that the doctrine is just not that clearly taught in the NT writings alone. And since it was not made an official teaching until the 4th century, I think it is a conscience decision whether or not you fully accept it.
Like I said earlier, the writers of the NT did a good enough job explaining the Holy Spirit by likening "it" to a he, dove, wind, fire, etc. And I think the early church fathers should have left good enough alone. Instead by making the trinity an official doctrine and Holy Spirit a person, they confused people even more. Peace to you, Lilly
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reniaa
This is one scripture that does have translation issues with it john 1:1, but does this one scripture even without those issues in translation cancel the 20/30 scriptures that describe God and jesus as separate, has them talking to each other, has jesus saying the father is greater than I (which incidently means people are definately going against jesus's own teaching when saying they are equal)
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fjtoth
Sirona,
If Jesus is "a god" and Jehovah is "God" - is Jesus a false god or a true god?
How is your question any different from the following? "If Jesus is 'God' and Jehovah is 'God' -- Is Jesus a false 'God' or a true 'God'?" We could also ask, "If God labeled Moses as 'God,' was Moses a false 'God' or a true 'God'? (Exodus 4:16; 7:1)
All through the Bible, God is addressed as "You" and referred to as "He" (singular person). It should be noted that there are examples of a singular "them" and a singular "they" in Bible Hebrew. This singular "them" and "they" are brought into English by the King James Version, as in Deuteronomy 17:5: "Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." The verse indicates only one guilty person. Otherwise it would say "that man and that woman." But in specifying the punishment, it uses "them" and "they". If the one God were composed of more than one Person, it seems only reasonable (and scriptural) that regularly he would be called "Them" or "They," and not "He".
fjtoth
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lovelylil
reniaa,
Actually, some people, myself included, believe that the Father and Son are seperate persons, and that the Father is greater in position to the Son, but still believe they are equal in nature. Go back and read my older posts on this thread and maybe you will see why I feel this way.
Also this text helped me see the equalness of the father and son;
John 10:
30 I and the Father are one*" 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
It is clear that Christ said "I and the Father are I' (verse 30) and yet, the Jews said Jesus claimed "to be God" (verse 33) Why? Because the Greek word for "one" that Christ used was "neuter" which literally means "one thing". GOD is a term for "one thing", 2 Divine persons together, the Father and the Son make up this "one thing". But again, the father IS greater in position than the Son. They are equal in nature. Peace, Lilly
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BurnTheShips
This is one scripture that does have translation issues with it john 1:1, but does this one scripture even without those issues in translation cancel the 20/30 scriptures that describe God and jesus as separate, has them talking to each other, has jesus saying the father is greater than I (which incidently means people are definately going against jesus's own teaching when saying they are equal)
You really do not understand what the Trinity doctrine is reniaa. Your post above evidences this. You criticize a caricature. The Son and the Father are seperate Persons so yes, when Jesus was in the world he spoke to the Father, but rememeber that he also did things like these to teach us. No Trinitarian contests this that the Father and the Son are different persons. Also, when Jesus says the Father is greater than himself, he is speaking according to the human nature he took on when he came to the world. Hebrews 2:9 says: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. And Phillipians 2:7 says: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Burn