I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God! (page 10)

Sarah Smiles

As far as looking at the bible to support the evidence, which bible will you choose? Because you will find out that bibles are written to support the doctrines! I like them all!

Also, there is one scripture in the NWT that talks about the deity which I had a hard time with when I found it!

After I became reinstated, and the last bible study I had with witnesses they stated from the WT
1960" that "MOST PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS NOT MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL, BELIEVE JESUS IS JEHOVAH"

It sure was hard to answer that one! So I said that I do not believe that Jesus is Jehovah or that he is Michael because in Hebrews Jesus was made higher than the angels! And Jehovah refers him as GOD! shall I go on?

I was raised as a Jehovah Witness and will never fully understand how christains can take the entire old testiment and believe that Jehovah is Jesus when in fact he is not! No matter how many time I read the complete bible from beginning to end I will never see that one!

Zico

*Adds further agreement to Lily and BurntheShips*

Mog:

I'd be surprised if the NWT were in the position to translate John 20:28 as 'my god' and didn't.

'where do you hear GOD THE FATHER call JESUS HIS GOD'

Sarah mentioned Hebrews 1:8, where the Father calls Jesus God, though not his God (dependant on bible translation)

'and where do you find the HOLY SPIRIT THE GOD..'

We weren't talking about the HOLY SPIRIT!

As Lily said, I don't think Trinity is an essential subject.

reniaa

Just because a word can be used as a plural doesn't mean it should be! luckily for us there are other language indicators that hebrews are refering to one God only, using singular masculine words to denote it's single form, You can not ignore also that jews who are Gods chosen people before jesus came right upto this day see this as refering to single God, no where have they ever seen him as plural. We have writings from jews before jesus that indicate they only viewed God as a single entity only and they wrote the bible so they would know how their language worked! Christians should take this into account that any jew reading this saw it to mean One God on single masculine.at that time from writing right through to jesus, and like I said before evidence also shows the trinity is a later adoption, that christians of jesus's day paul, peter all the appostles also believed in One God only, No trinity at all! which is clearly a later adoption from the minds of men. Jesus is not stupid when he refer's to father and son he know how that works for humanity, that the people around him would see him and God as separate entities by that word usage.

Hebrew grammar
Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are breshit bara elohim, where bara ??? is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u ???? would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel). There are a few other words in Hebrew that have a plural ending, but refer to a single entity and take singular verbs and adjectives, for example ????? (be'alim, owner) in Exodus 21:29 and elsewhere.
In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.

justhuman

The only reason that the Church has to defend Trinity it was the Arius heretic point of view that Jesus is not God, and only created. At the end he had a tragic death in the toilet. He tried hard to fight Saint Athanasius on this matter. The Early Church they had Synodos when a matter was occured like the first recorded Synodos at Acts 15, when the Bishops had to discuss the matter of circumcission.

You need a lot to read regarding Trinity, in fact even my self I found it very hard to accept it. Also try to clean your head from the Arian heretic idea that WT and extereme Protestant groups hold. There are many passages in the Old Testament that shows the connection between the 3 persons. Even the Jesus said that you will baptized in the NAME of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

So we have few questions here:

1. If the Father and the Son are persons why did Jesus didn't also separeted the Holy Spirit from the other 2?

2. Does a "force" has a name?

3. Why do Those 3 Father- Son- Holy Spirit share the same name YHWH?

This is just an example regarding Trinity. But I can give you the definition of Trinity in a very simple example and according to what the Apostolic Church set at at the 3rd century A.D.

The Sun has 3 elements:

1. The Star

2. Light

3. Heat

Those 3 elements they co-exist. But the cause of those elements is the Sun. So the Sun is the Father. Then we have the light. The Light(Jesus)comes from the Sun(Father)who is the Cause. And then the Heat(Holy Spirit) that again comes from the Source the Sun(Father)

Although those 3 elements are 3 seperate things they are one. Because they cannot exist apart. You cannot have the Light if you don't have the Sun, and again you cannot have heat without the Sun.

So the same with Trinity. The Father is the Cause of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Although they are 3 persons they are One. Father the Cause for the other 2 is higher than Jesus and Holy Spirit, because the Father is the Cause, that is why Jesus said the Father is greater than me.

The Trinity dogma is one of the basic differences between the Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church and the Papal Church(Catholic) Before the schisma the Symbol of Faith was set by the Church and it was accepted by the East and West Roman Church. After the Papal Church broke from the origninal dogma of the Church 1080 A.D they insert in the Symbol of faith that the Holy Spirit comes also from the Son, and this is on of the major points of disagreement.

Satanus

John1:1 does it for me. Same nature.

S

Deputy Dog

'where do you hear GOD THE FATHER call JESUS HIS GOD'

Gen 19:24

Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from Jehovah out of the heavens.

Was God talking to Himself here?

MOG

so that all of you are aware, in greek there is no such thing as 'A GOD' - they dont have caps in Greek everything is lower case - or rather no case. The "A" word also is not in Greek (but of course we have to fill those in when appropriate so that the translation to English is clear without compromise) there is only one article - that being a DEFINITE ARTICLE "THE" which can morph itself in 30 different ways but nevertheless still a DEFINITE ARTICLE - yet how does one determine INDEFINITES in Greek when in English we have two of them "a"(indefinite) and 'the' (definite) - do your research ;0)

In John 1:1 (original Greek) - there is 3 DEFINITE articles for 'the word' then there is 1 only for 'the god' and then there is none for 'god' on the second mention. You have to ask yourself why is 'the word' showing definiteness (everytime), and why does a highest title of intimacy such as 'the god' only has it once and there is a skip of it on the 2nd mention of 'god'

this is the same issue with acts 28:6

if you take the last portion of it, it will read from the original Greek to English

'they were saying he was god'

if you go now to your scripture you will see it as

'they were saying he was a god'

Obviously there are no doctrinal issue with Acts verse because its about Paul, the writer obviously was talking in 'INDEFINITE', thus add the 'a' makes much sense.

MOG

Deputy Dog you need to research Genesis 19:24 again..thats all i will say ;0)..i already found several saying something different as well..

real one

Hebrews 1:8 is another perfect example of how the jw have twisted the scriptures,

But God says about his son, " You are God, and you will rule as king forever! Then if you read the entire Hebrews starting at 1:5 to 7

God has never said to any of his angels,You are my son because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them " I will be his Father and he will be my son". When God brings his firstborn-son into the world, he commands all of his angels to worship him. And when God speaks about the angels he says," I change my angels into wind and my servants into flaming fire.

Not tell me the jw dont deny the deity of Christ their Bible reads Jesus was made lower than the angels in verse 7. That is not true in any other translation!

tijkmo

tell Tijkmo that!

what the hell did i do!!

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

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