I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 343 Replies latest jw experiences

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Deputy Dog,

    Many scholars point out that the expressions "form [morphe] of God" and "image [eikon] of God" are similar in meaning. For example, James Dunn, in his monumental work Christology in the Making, states on page 115: "It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms." R.P. Martin, in an article on "Morphe in Philippians 2:6," states that "morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX [Greek Septuagint]." -- Expository Times, Vol. 70, Number 6, March 1959, pages 183-184.

    The scholarly lexicon by Walter Bauer, translated and revised by Arndt and Gingrich, has under morphe, “form, outward appearance, shape.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, has “form, external appearance.” Kittel also notes that morphe and the word for "appearance" (schema) are often interchangeable.

    According to Bauer's Lexicon, Josephus used morphe to describe the shape of statues that were in the image, shape or form of living persons. If these examples aren't enough, I can supply you with several more.

    Philippians 2:7 doesn't say Jesus became a bond-servant. It says he took the "form" of a bond-servant. There is a big difference. In Eden the devil took on the form of a cunning and deceitful serpent, but that doesn't mean he actually was a serpent. Jesus did the opposite. Though he held a highly-privileged position as God's Son, he took on "the form of a bond-servant." But that doesn't mean he actually became a bond-servant who was forced into slavery beyond his own will.

    It certainly is true that Jesus was obediently submissive to the point of death. But we have to keep in mind the terminology of the Bible, not our own personal definition of bond-servant (doulos). The word doulos occurs 120 times in the New Testament, and this is the only verse that compares Jesus to a bond-servant. But it does not say he was such. It says, on the other hand, that he took on the "form" of such.

    I think you should be able to see clearly that someone "in the form of" someone else does not mean that both are one and the same. Christ being "in the form of" God therefore does not mean that Christ is God in the sense that the Father is God. The Father alone is the only "true" or authentic God, according to Jesus himself. -- John 17:3.

    I apologize for typing "Robert" Thayer instead of "Joseph" Thayer. For over a century, Joseph Henry Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon has been lauded as one of the best New Testament lexicons available. Thayer's Lexicon was compiled several years before he changed his position on Biblical inerrancy, but he never wavered in his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity. He never expressed himself as having, in your words, "a low view of scripture."

    If the bible tells me that Jesus took the "form"/ morphe¯ of a "servant"/doulos, I believe he did do what it says. You don't "but Christ was never a bond-servant or doulos" (to most people this looks like you don't believe or don't "understand the Scriptures")

    If you really do believe what the Bible says, I think it would be evident in your acceptance of what those wiser than you or I have to say about doulos and its use in the Bible. How do you know that "most people" would take the position that those with the correct understanding of doulos "don't 'understand the Scriptures'"?

    That passage does not even address the matter of Jesus being a servant, you are reading it into the text.

    Please read the parable of the landowner once again. Every commentary I've ever read says the obvious, that Jesus is not one of the "servants" (doulos) but that he is instead the "son" (huios) in that parable.

    I suppose you think he came disguised as a servant? What would that accomplish ?

    I never used the word "disguised," so why bring it up? The point of Philippians 2:6 is that Jesus could have asserted himself, being as he was the very Son of God; but instead he humbled himself before others. He was not in forced slavery as a bond-servant, but he acted as if he were. He was not a bond-servant, but he took on the "form" of one.

    fjtoth
    http://formerjw.homestead.com

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    fjtoth

    Many scholars point out that the expressions "form [morphe] of God" and "image [eikon] of God" are similar in meaning. For example, James Dunn, in his monumental work Christology in the Making, states on page 115: "It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms." R.P. Martin, in an article on "Morphe in Philippians 2:6," states that "morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX [Greek Septuagint]." -- Expository Times, Vol. 70, Number 6, March 1959, pages 183-184.

    Again there is a big difference between the words: similar in meaning, near synonyms, and used interchangeably. My argument is not that the words aren't similar in meaning, it's that they are not interchangeable, in this context.

    Lets leave Jesus out of the equation (since you say he's not God) for a moment. What is the "form of GOD"? Describe for us how God's "form" strikes your vision. Describe the "appearance" of the invisible God.

    How does one look like an invisible God?

    Philippians 2:7 doesn't say Jesus became a bond-servant. It says he took the "form" of a bond-servant. There is a big difference. In Eden the devil took on the form of a cunning and deceitful serpent, but that doesn't mean he actually was a serpent. Jesus did the opposite. Though he held a highly-privileged position as God's Son, he took on "the form of a bond-servant." But that doesn't mean he actually became a bond-servant who was forced into slavery beyond his own will.

    Many bond-servants were not forced into slavery beyond their own will. In fact it was very common for people to willingly do this in that day. This was known as debt-slavery. Many willingly stayed with their masters after the year of jubilee.

    If you really do believe what the Bible says, I think it would be evident in your acceptance of what those wiser than you or I have to say about doulos and its use in the Bible.

    Seems to me God the Father had the correct understanding of servant H5650 when He discribes Him In Isaiah 53:11

    Isa 53:10

    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    I never used the word "disguised," so why bring it up? The point of Philippians 2:6 is that Jesus could have asserted himself, being as he was the very Son of God; but instead he humbled himself before others. He was not in forced slavery as a bond-servant, but he acted as if he were.

    So you think he was just putting on a show?

    I don't think you understand how serious sin really is.

    Please read the parable of the landowner once again. Every commentary I've ever read says the obvious, that Jesus is not one of the "servants" (doulos) but that he is instead the "son" (huios) in that parable.

    I never said He was. I'm saying the parable does not apply, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Deputy Dog,

    Again there is a big difference between the words.

    Contrary to what you say, there is no "big" difference between doulos ("form") and morphe ("image). They can be "used interchangeably," as shown by their interchangeable use in the Greek Septuagint, as mentioned in my previous post. Additionally, at Hebrews 10:1 several translations say "form" instead of "image" when translating eikon.

    "The law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form[eikon] of these realities." (English Standard Version)"The law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form [eikon] of those realities." (Holman Christian Standard Bible)"The Law ... has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form [eikon] of things." (New American Standard Bible)"The law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form [eikon] of these realities." (New Revised Standard Version)"The law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form [eikon] of these realities" (Revised Standard Version)

    My argument is not that the words aren't similar in meaning, it's that they are not interchangeable, in this context.

    Where do you get authoritative support for saying they cannot be used interchangeably in Philippians 2:6? What determines that it's okay to use them interchangeably elsewhere, but not here?

    Elsewhere the Bible says Jesus is the "image" of God:

    "Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4)
    "He is the image of the invisible God." (Colossians 1:15)

    If other texts say that Christ is the "image" of God, where is the evidence that this text in Philippians 2:6 is not saying the same thing, in view of the two words being interchangeable elsewhere?

    Being in the "image" or "form" of God does not make one God or equal to God. Adam and Eve were created in God's "image," but that did not make them God. (Genesis 1:26, 27; 5:1; 9:6) And Christians are in the "image" of God. (1 Corinthians 11:7; Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10) God's intention is that all mankind should be in his "image," but that will never make them God.

    Deuteronomy 4:16, 23 is another example that plainly shows "form" is simply another word for "image" or "likeness". The Israelites were commanded: "Do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth ... a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you." The "form" of any animal did not equal the actual animal in any sense.

    fjtoth

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Am I the only one who finds it amusing that there can be so much squabbling about the nature of an entity whose existence is not established?

    It's like small children arguing over whether imaginary friends have one nose or two.

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Deputy Dog,

    Lets leave Jesus out of the equation (since you say he's not God) for a moment. What is the "form of GOD"? Describe for us how God's "form" strikes your vision. Describe the "appearance" of the invisible God. How does one look like an invisible God?

    Isn't your question simply a denial of the Bible? The Bible plainly says Jesus is the "image" of God. Obviously that doesn't mean physically as you seem to be insisting. If the Bible says he is God's "image," who are you or I or anyone else to say he is not God's image?

    Many bond-servants were not forced into slavery beyond their own will. In fact it was very common for people to willingly do this in that day. This was known as debt-slavery. Many willingly stayed with their masters after the year of jubilee.

    You have got to be kidding! Where is your evidence that "it was very common for people to willingly" become slaves? The yearning of every normal person is to be free and independent. People give their lives that others may have that freedom. So who are you trying to kid with a statement like that? As for "debt-slavery," think about it for a moment: Is slavery to pay off debts something that persons entered into because they preferred slavery over freedom? Debt-slavery was entered into as an obligation, not as a desirable choice. Jesus had no debts to pay. Unlike us, he was free of sin and "slavery to corruption," and he enjoyed "the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:21)

    Seems to me God the Father had the correct understanding of servant H5650 when He discribes Him In Isaiah 53:11

    The mention of "servant" in Isaiah 53:11 has nothing to do with "bond-servant" in Philippians 5:6. Concerning the Hebrew word 'ebed translated "servant," note what is stated in the New International Version Study Bible footnote at Isaiah 41:8, 9: "A significant term in chs. 41-53, referring sometimes to the nation of Israel and other times to an individual. In these passages the title refers to one who occupies a special position in God's royal administration of his kingdom, as in 'my servant Moses' (Ex 14:31; Nu 12:7), 'my servant David' (2 Sa 3:18; 7:5,8), 'my servants the prophets' (2 Ki 17:13; Jer 7:25)."

    Also note the footnote at Exodus 14:31: "his servant ... refers to one who has the status of a high official in the Lord's kingly administration."

    Also note the footnote at Isaiah 42:1: "In the royal terminology of the ancient Near East 'servant' meant something like 'trusted envoy' or 'confidential representative.'" [The bold faced underlining is mine, and in each example the word "servant" is from the Hebrew word 'ebed, the same word that appears in Isaiah 53:11.]

    So, you are greatly mistaken to suggest that the Hebrew 'ebed ("servant") is the same as the Greek doulos ("bond-servant").

    So you think he was just putting on a show?

    If you got that idea from what I wrote about Jesus being the "image" of God, that must also be the way you interpret those Bible verses that say Jesus is such. Jesus is the reflection of God's very being just as God intends each Christian to be the reflection of Christ: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." -- Romans 8:29, 30.

    I nerver said He was. I'm saying the parable does not apply, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    It has everything to do with what we're discussing. It clearly shows that Jesus is not a doulos, no matter what you want to believe. Despite your feelings, the Bible makes it clear again and again that Jesus was never Almighty God or a doulos. He was simply in the image or "form" of God and in the image or "form" of a doulos.

    fjtoth

  • real one
    real one

    Am I the only one who finds it amusing that there can be so much squabbling about the nature of an entity whose existence is not established?

    It's like small children arguing over whether imaginary friends have one nose or two. oh his existence is established. you will find out sooner or later, and for your sake i hope its not too late

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    real one

    oh his existence is established. you will find out sooner or later, and for your sake i hope its not too late

    I hope you see the amazingly gaping flaw in your response. If there is proof, and if you really cared at all about my 'sake', you should provide that incontrovertible proof instead of making smarmy idle threats in the name of your hero.

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Jeffro,

    It's not up to anyone else to convince you that God exists. That is something anyone ought to be able to determine for himself. Romans 1:20-28 says it well: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, ... And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind."

    If you cannot see God in his handiwork, he won't allow you to see him in answered prayers or in experiencing the work of his holy spirit in your life either.

    If you want to argue about the existence of God, wouldn't it be better to start another thread rather than to divert this already long one into another topic?

    fjtoth

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    fjtoth, thank you for so fabulously missing the point. I did not say that I do not believe in God. I said there is no proof, and that arguing about whether the Trinity is true is stupid. If god does exist, do you think he would prefer that people try to help each other and live peacefully, or that they just bicker about whether he's in a trinity or not?

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Which is the real Jeffro?

    The one who wrote this about God:

    an entity whose existence is not established

    imaginary

    you should provide that incontrovertible proof

    there is no proof

    If god does exist

    Or this?

    I did not say that I do not believe in God.

    fjtoth

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