Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT stupid!

by nicolaou 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  chickpea

  i have to admit i do not consider myself a stupid person
  but i also admit assimilating with the b0rg has to be the
  stupidest thing i have done to date..... hopefully there
  will be little else i can do to top that blunder.....
• 

  reniaa

  hi jgnat Aren't we all a little predjudiced in what we ourselves decide to believe and in what believe we end up defending it? I looked at your links they were good ( they were interesting and do show excommunition/shunning is an excepted biblically drawn discipline by many christian faiths if not widely used) but they only confirm what I know that descipline written down exists but is it put into practise? But that also a deep knowledge of the flock is needed and my next questions would be how well do people interact within their church, my knowledge is limited in that I agree with you there.

  You see with so many faiths you get allsorts from church faiths with one vicar for an entire flock and other faiths were they are at-home ones were meeting/church attendance isn't a prerequisite, or they are like my pentacostal ex's were they confess a sin prayer for repentence and it's just let go nothing more is done. Or the witnesses that are fairly strict in all aspects of the religion but even then you can't go into peoples homes and know what is done behind closed curtains,

  lol I do agree my way of working through issues is somewhat different! :) I won't say perculiar.

  But I shall answer this thread seriously and that is No I don't think the witnsses are stupid, but I don't think they are brainwashed either, the length of time a study takes is at the minimum 6 months is long enough for anyone to do research into it, It's just a faith you either believe or don't, born-in may have some grounds for saying they had no choice but I am one of 7 born in siblings and atm the only one with witness leanings so the teachings do not grip you to that degree even born-in get the chance to decide if they believe the teachings or not, Someone may stay in due to not wanting to lose family due to shunning but their mind is still free, to me brainwashing promotes the idea that we are mentally held captive too but again the amount that leave would discount this hypothesis, If a person can reason there way in and out of a belief easily then brainwashing doesn't apply.,
• 

  Mary

  reniaa said: but I don't think they are brainwashed either, the length of time a study takes is at the minimum 6 months is long enough for anyone to do research into it, It's just a faith you either believe or don't, born-in may have some grounds for saying they had no choice but I am one of 7 born in siblings and atm the only one with witness leanings so the teachings do not grip you to that degree even born-in get the chance to decide if they believe the teachings or not, Someone may stay in due to not wanting to lose family due to shunning but their mind is still free, to me brainwashing promotes the idea that we are mentally held captive too but again the amount that leave would discount this hypothesis, If a person can reason there way in and out of a belief easily then brainwashing doesn't apply.

  More evidence that reniaa is most likely an active Witness and not someone who had left and is merely "considering" going back.

  For anyone who thinks that the WTB&TS does not attempt to have a high degree of control over its members, here's a link you should check out that Lady Lee put together a while ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/32/76959/1.ashx
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  OUTLAW

  This thread made me Laugh!..The poster at the begining is just too funny..So I copied it and printed it out.....Now I have a Poster that say`s: "JW`S ARE STUPID,THROW ROCK`S AT THEM!"..LOL!!......Any body who was raised in this Cult will appreciate a poor little JW kid being picked on..Most of us were.......................OUTLAW
• 

  Caedes

  I don't think they are brainwashed either, the length of time a study takes is at the minimum 6 months is long enough for anyone to do research into it, It's just a faith you either believe or don't, born-in may have some grounds for saying they had no choice but I am one of 7 born in siblings and atm the only one with witness leanings so the teachings do not grip you to that degree even born-in get the chance to decide if they believe the teachings or not, Someone may stay in due to not wanting to lose family due to shunning but their mind is still free, to me brainwashing promotes the idea that we are mentally held captive too but again the amount that leave would discount this hypothesis, If a person can reason there way in and out of a belief easily then brainwashing doesn't apply.

  I find that particularly offensive, especially coming from someone who claims to be born-in. I was born into a witness family already torn apart because of witness brainwashing, my mother got a divorce shortly before 1975 (go figure! ) simply because my dad wasn't a witness. I have little to no contact with my mother's side of the family simply because I chose not to be a witness. I was forced to go to three meetings a week, out on service and even give talks despite my protests. I was punished for questioning things I was taught at the kingdom hall and was thrown out of my mothers house at 17 because I was not interested in becoming a witness. That my mother's religion was more important than her own children says everything about how brainwashed JWs are. I knew families that had an even more difficult time than I did, one whose father was so controlling that all the children were forced to dress the same (in WW2 refugee clothing)

  My mother and her side of the family are all brainwashed, they cannot openly question anything and they are not allowed to research outside of the society's literature. Brainwashing is a much more subtle form of manipulation than you presume.

  Tell me how much research have you done on what consitutes brainwashing and what constitutes a cult? None, outside of a watchtower, I'm guessing.
• 

  besty

  Reniaa

  but I don't think they are brainwashed either

  Have you read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan?

  If not, I recommend you do so.

  Here's a quick list of things to ask when determining if a group is harmful, high control, cultish etc. (my answers about JW's in brackets)

  1 - Are you trying to recruit me? (Yes)

  2 - Who is the top leader? (The GB have god-like status to the rank and file, see lines forming to meet them at conventions etc)

  3 - What does your group believe? (That Jehovah will soon destroy everyone not a JW)

  4 - Is deception allowed in certain circumstances? (yes - theocratic warfare, incomplete disclosure of all beliefs during recruitment phase)

  5 - Once I join do I have to quit school, donate money and property and cut myself off from friends and family who oppose my membership? (that will be 3/3 yes's there)

  6 - Is your group considered controversial by anyone? (erm yes)

  7 - Does your group impose restrictions on communicating with former members? (erm yes a few)

  8 - What else would your rather do in life rather than be a member? (likely answer from JW - "nothing")

  Based on my own experience and those of many others, research such as reading works by Steve Hassan and others I have no hesitation as classifying the WTS as a high control group - call it cultic or brainwashing if you will - but their pattern of behaviour assigns them no matter how loudly they lie, cry and deny.
• 

  OUTLAW

  Caedes.."None outside a Watchtower I`m guessing."..Your probably right............................Mary..Reniaa does seem to ignore In Your Face facts..Regardless of of how many times they are presented.....OUTLAW
• 

  jgnat

  You are thinking, reniaa, but it is not systematic. I stand by my statement that your reasoning is curious and peculiar. You do seem also to cherry-pick your research. Your perception of church discipline, for instance, comes right out of the Watchtower magazines. It is nothing to boast about when an organization kicks out it's smokers, it's doubters, and it's children with drug problems.

  Perhaps you haven't discovered yet that the Watchtower claims in their literature are flimsy indeed. They can't be backed up. Their failures range from as simple as neglecting to give the source, to deliberate mis-quoting.

  http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-societys-view-of-material-it.html

  Others have tackled your comments on the mind control techniques used by the Watchtower society. The study may take longer than other indoctrination methods, but I also find that it's effects also last longer. It takes six weeks or more, absent from all exposure including meetings and literature, for a congregation member to start thinking independently.

  Take my very brief introduction to a Watchtower study. It didn't last more than five weeks. Why? Because I wouldn't stick to the program of read-and-answer. I wanted my questions fully researched and answered before I would go on. My study leader concluded that I was "not interested". Why is it that only passive participants are encouraged to continue with the study?
• 

  reniaa

  hey jgnat, you'd have found me more simpathetic to your way of studying when i was an active witness but one thing you learn is if someone just isn't interested you walk away, a cult hell bent on brainwashing would have hung in there longer:) if you think of me as a problem on this site trust me as an active witness i wasn't exactly mainstream either lol and wouldn't be if i went back, Just think how annoying i would be if i got disfellowshipped and just kept on going to a kingdom hall without being phased if i felt they were unjust in df-ing me, shunning wouldn't phase me either and if i got people interested while df-d (because i wouldn't stop preaching even if not going on the doors) i'd pass the person on to an elder.

  now lets get to that mind control list :) from oops one of the other posters :)

  Have you read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan?

  If not, I recommend you do so.

  Here's a quick list of things to ask when determining if a group is harmful, high control, cultish etc. (my answers about JW's in brackets)

  1 - Are you trying to recruit me? (Yes)

  2 - Who is the top leader? (The GB have god-like status to the rank and file, see lines forming to meet them at conventions etc)

  3 - What does your group believe? (That Jehovah will soon destroy everyone not a JW)

  4 - Is deception allowed in certain circumstances? (yes - theocratic warfare, incomplete disclosure of all beliefs during recruitment phase)

  5 - Once I join do I have to quit school, donate money and property and cut myself off from friends and family who oppose my membership? (that will be 3/3 yes's there)

  6 - Is your group considered controversial by anyone? (erm yes)

  7 - Does your group impose restrictions on communicating with former members? (erm yes a few)

  8 - What else would your rather do in life rather than be a member? (likely answer from JW - "nothing")

  Based on my own experience and those of many others, research such as reading works by Steve Hassan and others I have no hesitation as classifying the WTS as a high control group - call it cultic or brainwashing if you will - but their pattern of behaviour assigns them no matter how loudly they lie, cry and deny

  1 - Are you trying to recruit me? ( " 7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near." mathew 10:7)

  2 - Who is the top leader? ( Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.)

  3 - What does your group believe? ( 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. )

  4 - Is deception allowed in certain circumstances? I disagree with this above point every JW teaching is disclosed even disfellowshipping/blood/preaching work before baptism you'll need to provide proof that it isn't! because my experience is all teachings past and present are on the table hense why with wts are so easy to research back issues.

  5 - Once I join do I have to quit school, donate money and property and cut myself off from friends and family who oppose my membership? (* 25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.)

  6 - Is your group considered controversial by anyone? ( 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.)

  8 - What else would your rather do in life rather than be a member? 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

  I'm afraid jesus and the first century christians didn't past your test either!
• 

  Mary

  Excellent response Betsy!! Reniaa will most likely just ignore your rebuttal like she normally does whenever it comes to doctrinal issues though. Typical Witness tactic.