Please Help: Disfellowshipping--Scriptural View

by GinnyTosken 34 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  GinnyTosken

  I'm hoping you all can help.

  An active Jehovah's Witness joined us in chat tonight and was dismayed that this site slams Witnesses for trying to follow the Bible in matters such as disfellowshipping. This chatter feels that many people here complain about the Society's policies without offering evidence that the policies are without scriptural backing.

  I must be at work very early Monday morning, so I could not stay in chat as long as I wished. I told the chatter I would start this thread so that s/he could gather information and opinions from several sources.

  In chat I was trying to present a point that I remembered from In Search of Christian Freedom, about how disfellowshipping was meant to be a personal choice, not a decision forced on the congregation by a small committee. I did not have the material at hand and did not do a very good job of it.

  I tried directing the chatter to web sites, but the chatter seemed uncomfortable with this and wanted scriptures and explanations directly without looking at website articles.

  I will not be able to do more research or posting on this topic until late Monday evening. If you all can help out before then, I'm sure the chatter would very much appreciate it.

  Ginny
• 

  VeniceIT

  We were discussing different Scriptures one I would like to stay with is in Matt 18:15-17 (taken from the NASB)

  "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private, if he listens to you, you have won your brother"
  "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed."
  "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

  Matt 18:15-17a is what the JW's use to handle a df'ing, (In theory although the publishers really don't have a say in it as this scripture would suggest, but that's another post entirely) back to the point!!!! Does Jesus say to disfellowship them?? (funny spell check doesn't know the word disfellowship)remember we're talking about this one passage!!! HOW DID HE SAY TO TREAT SUCH ONES?

  'let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

  OK so HERE is the Question what did Jesus mean by the above vs.
  How he treated them??? or how the Pharisees treated them??

  (them being Gentiles and tax collectors)

  Jesus ate with Gentiles, and Matthew was a tax collector!

  The Pharisees where the ones that shunned the Gentiles and Tax collectors!

  Who's EXAMPLE should we follow JESUS or the Pharisees?

  Ven

  "Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."
• 

  Marilyn

  I've been "out" too long to remember what scriptures they use to justify their actions. "Quit touching the unclean thing"? - could mean anything. Would the chatter be kind enough to refresh us on the scriptures the WTS uses to disfellowship. I also thought there was something about "Expell the wicked one from amongst yourselves". ????

  I would like to point out that I am disfellowshipped and my circumstances were that my husband and I left the congregation quietly. We'd lost faith. After 2 yrs of not associating with the congregation we were approached and accused of apostasy. We were moral, upstanding young parents who no longer believed in any religion of any sort. How does this qualify us to be called "wicked"? (I ask you to employ commonsense when answering this!!)

  I would also like to ask the chatter how it is that there is great inequality in practising disfellowshipping in the Organisation. In many congregations, people have been allowed to slip away from the congregation without being disfellowshipped. It's even spoken of in the WT magazine that people CAN leave quietly. Some appear to be disfellowshipped whilst others are left alone. What scripture is used to explain this?

  I would also like to ask how any JW can claim at doors that they do not break up families? Disfellowhipping is now ramped in the Organisation causing family break ups in the thousands. Yet when I was a practising JW, we vehemently denied that we broke up families.

  Marilyn
• 

  rem

  To add to Venice's comment (sounds like we are in a meeting!) I would also say that in the scripture referenced at Matt 18:15-17, the word 'you' was not used in the plural tense. In the koine Greek there were two separate words for 'you'. One singular and one plural. In the NWT, the plural form is rendered in all caps (YOU).

  In verse 17 (NWT) it says:
  

  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

  So we see that Jesus was referring to the offended one when he said 'you', not the entire congregation (otherwise he would have said YOU). It's easy to miss in english since we use the word 'you' in both the singular and plural forms.

  Therefore, strictly from Jesus' words, we don't see any reference to congregational shunning for offences (even assuming treating one as a tax collector would mean shunning). It was an individual choice and not an official punishment that the entire congregation enforced.

  rem

  'A scientific opinion is one which there is some reason to believe is true; an unscientific opinion is one which is held for some reason other than its probable truth.' - Bertrand Russell
• 

  Richie

  Re: Shunning is worse than the worst crime poss... Oct 26, 2001 10:13

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  This is a thread which I received from Englishman, who explains it exactly as it should be (from the Scriptures)......

  One of the best sites about JW's and particularly DF'ing, (you might have to ignore the odd relgious plug)is at http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/friends.html
  Here's how it explains the un-scripturalness of shunning:

  "Actually fornication is reported among you, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain man has of his father ... In my letter I wrote you to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not meaning entirely with the fornicator's of this world or the greedy persons and extortion's or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. But now I an writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reveler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (1 Cor 5:1, 9-13)

  In First Corinthians chapter 5 a man was having sexual relations with his fathers wife on a continual basis. It was not a one time event. This man was continually having sexual relations with his father's wife. For this he was to be removed from the congregation. Paul's counsel was for anyone called a brother who was continually practicing fornication, revelry, greediness, drunkenness and extortion was to be removed from the congregation, not even to eat a meal with them. This was not a person who did an occasional wrong and was willing to make corrections. This had absolutely nothing to do with a person who does not go along with all the teachings of a particular religious organization's policies and rulings. Nor does it have anything to do with persons being required to follow doctrinal and theological interpretations of scripture. It does include all those who go against the meaning of the Christ, by a continual practice of selfish and hurtful actions against their fellow man. Only a continual and thoughtless practice of hurtful and harmful acts towards others would merit such a removal. Misapplying this scripture, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Jehovah's Witnesses, use this scripture to excommunicate or disfellowship any member who disagrees and questions any of their doctrinal teachings and theological interpretations, this being a highly effective controlling tool in manipulating their followers.
  ---------------------------------------------------
  Ginny, please ask why it is that someone who disassociates himself should be viewed the same as a disfellowshipped person.... is that biblical??? No!!!!! However, the Society deemed it necessary to equate disassociation with disfellowshippjng for the simple reason to keep the witnesses in line so they would not leave the organization en masse. I have said before that if the witnesses would have the option to choose to disassociate themselves and continue to be allowed to associate with witnesses, at least 50% of all witnesses would do so.... No scriptural basis - then the Borg will make their own rules - sound familiar? Yes indeed it does!!!

  :*) Richie
• 

  Haggelos

  Ginny: Sadly in the many years that I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I have seen too too many cases of brothers and sisters being disfellowshiped when they were contrite and repentent. Even after having been disfellowshiped and they wanted to return to the fold many elders refused to allow their reinstatement due to some "personal" view and prejudice. Why? Because the elders weren't satisfied that they were repentant. It's a real and true shame upon the elders. What I am reminded of constantly are the words of the Master himself (not the elders) who said: "PAY ATTENTION TO YOURSELVES. (Emphasis added.) If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him. Even if he sins seven times against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' YOU MUST FORGIVE HIM."--Luke 17:3, 4. (Emphasis again.) HOW'S THAT FOR THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST?

  If Christ can forgive, what the hell is wrong with the elders? And why do they NOT FOLLOW the instructions of the Master? Why indeed? Because they (with exceptions, of course) are like the scribes and the Pharisees as recorded in Matthew 23:3, 4, and with again the words of the Master, Jesus Christ, who said: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore everything they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform." If they cannot be faithful to the instructions of the Master, faithful in what is least (a small thing, but really a BIG thing), how will they be faithful in great things? Yes, the elders will TELL YOU about forgiveness (just like the scribes and Pharisees), but it comes to actually forgiving, comforting, consoling, those who have sinned and ask forgiveness: "they say but do not perform." Tis sad indeed.

  May God have mercy. May Christ have mercy. Amen.

  Haggelos
• 

  hillary_step

  Ginny,

  Just to make a very small addition ( time compromised at present! ) to Richie's point regarding the man thought to be involved in an incestuous relationship probably with his step-mother and described in the scriptures noted above.

  Paul’s 1st letter, suggesting that Christians might not seek fellowship with such a person was written in 55CE while he was in Ephesus.

  Paul’s 2nd letter again written from Ephesus that same year and suggested that the man had ceased his incestuous relationship and Paul encouraged his friends to take him back in friendship lest he become overly saddened.

  Given the traveling required to deliver these letters to the congregation in Cornith, and to receive news back, and given that they were both written the same year, we have to conclude that this situation must have been dealt with in a few short months, perhaps even weeks. This is the only practical case contained in scripture that seems to indicate a process being enacted to discipline adherents in the early church.

  No restrictions, judicial committees, announcements, just a simple and rapid re-affirmation of Brotherhood once the immorality had ceased. The WTS has gone way beyond the bounds of scripture and actually developed a system that bears more resemblance to a political trial than a theological aid.

  HS
• 

  Bill Parker

  Hi Ginny:
  This is not to push an article that I already have on the page. There is information within that article that completely covers the Disfellowshipping practice. IT is an article titled "Apostasy". It is 22 pages long! A very long read I know. But all of the scriptural information that you need is there.IT shows that it is no man's business today to remove individuals from the congregation. IT is Jehovah's appointed Judge that looks after the cleaning up of the congregations. In brief recall the scripture at Matthew 13:27-30 They asked Him "do yo want US to go and weed them out" Look at what he told them! "NO,lest in gathering the wild wheat {weeds} you root up the {true} wheat along with it" He told them "Let the grow together until the harvest;and at harvest time I will say to the reapers [ANGELS} Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary" Verse 41 of that same chapter shows you who actually does that work. "The Son of Man will send forth his angels THEY will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offence... and all who do iniquity and act wickedly" First century christians were empowered by Jehovah to read the heart. That is evident by reading Acts 5:1-11.No man today is able to look into the heart so no man can accurately judge another man. Why would one sinner be looking at another to judge him anyway?" "All have sinned" Jesus now is Jehovah's appointed Judge. John 5:22. Jehovah has been seated in His heavenly court since "1914" Evidence for and against is being gathered. That court is still in session. NO verdict has as yet been rendered. When it has then the clean up will begin. As it is done now it is running ahead of Jehovah Himself and also His appointed Judge to remove anyone from the congregations. They will pay dearly for what they have done to families- marriages and individuals. Sooner or later we reap what we sow.
• 

  Quester

  Ginny wrote:
  I remembered from In Search of Christian Freedom, about how
  disfellowshipping was meant to be a personal choice, not a decision
  forced on the congregation by a small committee. I did not have
  the material at hand and did not do a very good job of it.

  Ginny, I think the point you are referring to is on page 326 of Ray's book.

  He talks about 2 Cor 2:6-8 where it says "rebuke given by the majority" of
  the congregation was sufficient and that the man should now be forgiven
  by them--"the majority."

  "Majority" implying not all withdrew fellowship with the individual, but
  that it was a voluntary congregational response on a personal level.

  Check page 344:
  Same Greek phrase is used at
  2 Thess 3:14 "stop associating with" (jw's apply as marking only,
  not total shunning)
  and
  1 Cor 5:11 - "quit mixing in company with" (jw's apply as total shunning)

  Page 338 for some good comments on 2 John 9-11 about never
  say a greeting.

  What is at issue? The teaching of Jesus as the Christ, not the teachings
  of a religion.

  Page 340 and 341
  Two different Greek words translated "greeting"
  at 2 John 11 and 13

  JW's say they have different meanings.

  But Luke 1 :28, 29 uses both Greek words synonymously
  indicating they had the same meaning.

  "Greeting" is not talking about just saying "hello."
  It is talking about showing acceptance or agreement.

  I don't think jw's use Mt 18:15-19 for disfellowshipping offenses?
  Isn't that for fraud/slander?

  Hope this helps.
  Am running out of time.
  Quester
• 

  You Know

  Franz is an idiot. He could probably get you people to believe that the moon is made of green cheese. The Scriptures are very plain about the matter. Paul said that he handed men over to Satan. That means that it was against their will that they were removed from the anointed congregation. Paul also said "remove the wicked man from among yourselves." The truth of the matter is very simple and easy to understand for anyone who loves truth. / You Know