Please Help: Disfellowshipping--Scriptural View

by GinnyTosken 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Absolutely. Paul chided the Corinthians because they were dragging each other before worldly judges and even though they were going to eventually judge angels some day they couldn't seem to field enough men to serve as judges in the congregation over trivial cases and disputes. Paul therefore clearly made the case for older men to be selected to serve in a judicial capacity. That's what Jesus was advising when he said to take such matters before the congregation, meaning those judges who represent the congregation.

    I note that in the entire paragraph quoted above, you do not actually cite a single scripture, despite the fact that my request was for a scripture supporting the judicial committee arrangement. Spoken like a true Watchtower follower! I will assume, however, that one of the scriptures you had intended to cite was the following verses from 1 Corinthians 5:

    12
    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
    13
    God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

    The letter to the Corinthians is a general letter to the congregation, not specifically to the body of elders. When Paul says, "Are you not to judge those inside?" he is referring to the congregation as a whole, not to a secret judicial committee, and not specifically to elders acting in a judicial capacity.

    Continuing into chapter 6 of 1 Corinthians, we read,

    1
    If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
    2
    Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
    3
    Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
    4
    Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
    5
    I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
    6
    But instead, one brother goes to law against another--and this in front of unbelievers!
    7
    The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?
    8
    Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

    You will note that the business of appointing judges is related to disputes between believers, not instances of sin within the congregation. Also, these judges need not be prominent ones in the congregation, or elders, but could be even 'men of little account in the church'. They were simply fellow believers called upon to give advice and mediate disputes; no elaborate judicial system is prescribed.

    But let's assume for a moment, as I'm sure you will argue, that these verses do authorize elders to try cases of sin in the congregation. Mind you, I don't think that they do, but if they do, we still need scripture to prove (1) that the elders handling such cases of sin should do so in secret, (2) that in no case and at no time should the congregation ever be informed as to what the sin was, only as to the outcome of the hearing, which they must accept without question, (3) that witnesses would not be permitted at such hearings, except within very specific guidelines, and then, that these witnesses could provide testimony only and then be dismissed, not allowed to observe other parts of the hearing, (4) that the person 'on trial' would not be permitted to make any record of the proceeding, even taking notes, (5) that there would be no appeal from the decision of the committee except to another identical 'star-chamber' hearing. Please provide the scriptural directives for those five points.

    That's what Jesus was advising when he said to take such matters before the congregation, meaning those judges who represent the congregation.

    Again, the Bible says "A", but the Watchtower says "A+B+C" and you believe that all three are 'scriptural'. What scripture indicates that when Jesus said to take such matters before the congregation, he was referring to 'those judges who represent the congregation'? The Watchtower says that, yes, even deceitfully inserting words to that effect on most occasions when they quote the verse! But that is not what Jesus said!! He said to take it to the congregation! I don't find it a bit difficult to believe that he meant that if a matter was so serious as to result in a person being forcibly expelled from the congregation, then it should be heard and decided by the entire congregation. At least then if some shunning or social restriction was employed, the members of the congregation would know why they were doing it, not just doing so because the elders said so!

    Apparently, then, you are massively ignorant of what the Bible actually says regarding these matters.
    1 Timothy 1:3 says: "...command certain ones not to teach different doctrine...By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions." That perfectly describes the mentality of the entire apostate movement. Furthermore Paul wrote at 1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride, not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and words. You exhibit the symptoms of being mentally diseased exactly as Paul described.

    Typical of JW argumentation. I come to you with reason and the scriptures, and you accuse me of being "massively ignorant" and "mentally diseased" because I do not agree with the Watchtower's twisted use of the scriptures. While both of the scriptures you cited above carry strong condemnations of those advocating wrong doctrine, neither calls for the disfellowshipping and shunning of such ones, but rather for the refutation of what they teach. I'm not going to say that in an extreme case one might not have been disfellowshipped for teaching wrong doctrine, particularly if he was causing divisions in the congregation. But certainly there was no 'witch-hunt' mentality as there is today among JWs, where even the slightest deviation from published doctrine, or disagreement over scripturally questionable (at best) doctrines like the 1914 chronology could easily lead to disfellowshipping.

    What is more, in the context of Paul’s comments in the 1st chapter the apostle said that Hymaneaus and Alexander were among those who were teaching different doctrine and that he had already handed them over to Satan.

    Following the style of your Watchtower leaders, you add a concept to the scripture that is not there. 1 Timothy 1 states,

    18
    Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
    19
    holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
    20
    Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

    I fail to see in the above verses where Hymenaeus and Alexander were, as you claim, "teaching different doctrine". The scripture clearly states that their offense was blasphemy. But the scripture works much better for you if it reads a bit differently, so you have no problem putting your own 'twist' on it. Beware! By doing this, you classify yourself with those spoken of in 2 Peter 3:

    15
    Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
    16
    He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • You Know
    You Know
    If they made a decision in their youth, such as baptism, can you honestly hold them to that?

    Yes. / You Know

  • You Know
    You Know
    I note that in the entire paragraph quoted above, you do not actually cite a single scripture, despite the fact that my request was for a scripture supporting the judicial committee arrangement. Spoken like a true Watchtower follower! I will assume, however, that one of the scriptures you had intended to cite was the following verses from 1 Corinthians 5:

    In my dealing with XJWs there is an assumption of knowledge on my part. Often, obviously, that assumption is not warranted. The instance I was referring to is 1 Corinthians the 6th chapter.

    You will note that the business of appointing judges is related to disputes between believers, not instances of sin within the congregation.

    That is true. That is also the situation Jesus was talking about when he advised Christians how to settle disputes among themselves, in the 18th chapter of Matthew. Those disputes though could involve fraud and greediness and slander and that's why judges would be involved in order to investigate the charges and remove the wicked man if necessary who refused to repent, or as Jesus said of the unrepentant evil doer: "let him be to you as a man of the nations." / You Know

  • ianao
    ianao

    What You Know actually means is that he has no sound rebuttal for your argument.

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    hmmmm I think we found You Knows FAV subject haahahah he's really going after this one eh??? to bad he's wrong though!

    Ven

    "Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    YK,

    Franz is an idiot.

    Mmm...I shall have to seriously consider this option, especially given your own personal experience in the matter.

    Actually YK, you are correct. The early Christian church did seem to have a manner of discipling its adherents.

    The question is whether it remotely resembles the model established and operated by the WTS. Have they gone beyond scriptual precedents?

    Best regards - HS

  • JT
    JT

    YK says:

    . You also agreed to accept the authority of the Watchtower Society to establish what was going to be taught as official doctrine within the congregation. You acknowledged as well the authority of the older men within the congregation and you agreed to be submissive to them. If now you no longer agree to any of those tenets of your faith you are no longer qualified to be one of Jehovah's Witness

    ##########

    for all you lurkers out there alow me to show you why YK is a Hypocrite - we will take a closer look at what he himself has said- what will will see is the same problem the wt has- by it's on paper trail it proves to be thier worst enemy-

    OPEN MOUTH INSERT FOOT:

    HE STATES: "You also agreed to accept the authority of the Watchtower Society"

    AND

    "If now you no longer agree to any of those tenets of your faith you are no longer qualified to be one of Jehovah's Witness"

    #### NOW 2 simple points

    1. according to YK one must accept the authority of the WT- Does he himself accept thier authority? Of course not. his merely being here on this forum Proves that.

    2. Does he agree with all the tenets that the wt teaches- well for anyone who has followed his post knows that the answer is NO.

    what you are looking at is a guy who wants talk out both sides of his mouth and where this country boy is from we call that a "Hypocrite"

    what makes life even harder for YK is the most recent Dogma that announced THE THINKING DOGMA

    in the Nov issue of the WT the FDS helped guys like YK to see that to EVEN HARBOR PRIVATE INTERPETATIONS OF THE BIBLE is forbidden

    so once AGAIN YK FINDS himself part of a group that says for him to think and act the way he does means that he is OUT OF HARMONY WITH THE UNITY OF THE ORG

    Yes YK you can say whatever you want to based on your own post above and the current teaching of the wt YOU ARE NO LONGER A JW

    welcome to the club with us apostates- go on over and get your teeshirt

    --
    YK your posting over the yeares -i will say has helped me personally --to show so many NON-JW and those who have serious concerns about the org to see that you are a JOKE- i thank you each time that you post

    you see the stuff that YK says and comes up with FORMER JW COULD NEVER COME UP WITH STUFF THAT GOOD

    JAMES

  • You Know
    You Know

    {QUOTE]for all you lurkers out there alow me to show you why YK is a Hypocrite [/QUOTE]

    Hey, Bozo! The Society knows me and they know what I do on the net. There's no hypocrisy on my part. / You Know

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    YK,

    Hey, Bozo! The Society knows me and they know what I do on the net. There's no hypocrisy on my part.

    Right and wrong. My information, which I trust, is that the WTS does know you but they do not know what you 'do on the net'.

    Would you like to publicly call me out on this one YK?

    HS

  • MrMoe
    MrMoe

    In my case I was repentant, very much so. But, I was DF'd as the elders put it -- to set an example that such courses would not be tolerated. Also, they warned me in the past about bad association and I did not heed their "advice." More like I did not obey the elders. I came back, but I knew then something was terribly wrong. How could the elders be directed by Jehovah if they were wrong?

    A friend of mine was DF'd as well. She was told in her meeting by one of the elders that they could see her repentance. She was dismissed while the elders discussed it. She came back to her verdict: DFing on the grounds of unrepentance.

    I spoke about this issue with my father, Service Overseer. He said the elders are allowed to judge and read heart conditions. He said most tears shed in a meeting are "crocodile tears." They do not believe anything you say in a meeting, only your actions. If you commit the same sin twice, it is automatically considered a disfellowshiping act because it shows unrepentance.

    Isn't it true that only Jehovah is supposed to read heart conditions? Did Jesus eat with sinners? Yes, he did. And the religious leaders of his day gave him much grief over it.

    If a person says they are repentant and WANTS to return to the JW's, who are they -- as men to judge? the bible says DO NOT JUDGE YOUR FELLOW MAN. I asked my dad about that. His answer was -- well in this case it's different.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit