Evidence of Jesus Outside the New Testament (long article)

by lovelylil 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  lovelylil

  My final statement on this thread is this;

  It is nearly impossible to gather physical evidence of the Lord Jesus at this time 2000+ years after his death. Jesus did not accumulate wealth and power in this world. He said he had nowhere to "lay his head" even. He did not leave any children behind or possessions at all. We will find no grave for he was risen from the dead.

  For Christians, it is a matter of faith that he existed. We have full confidence in the Bible as God's word and believe the NT to be accurate and true. The NT is a faith book for us, and we fully accept it as such.

  Even if the other ancient records here were evidences taken from followers of Christ or the early Christians, it is still good evidence that a real historical person named Jesus at one time walked the earth, was thought of as more than a man, and was crucified. This is what his church passed on about him. These early Christians went to their deaths proclaiming the truth they knew about our Lord Jesus, most deaths which were horrible and painful ones. Why? I believe many were eyewitnesses to his life, death and resurrection and knew beyond a doubt who he truly was. And we cannot expect those outside the church to accept their testimony or ours for that matter.

  So, I accept the evidence for what it is, a record of which facts were recorded by accounts given by the early church and that is sufficient for me. Like the Scriptures teach "let each of us be fully convinced in his own mind". Peace to all, Lilly
• 

  sinis

  My final statement on this thread is this;

  It is nearly impossible to gather physical evidence of the Lord Jesus at this time 2000+ years after his death. Jesus did not accumulate wealth and power in this world. He said he had nowhere to "lay his head" even. He did not leave any children behind or possessions at all. We will find no grave for he was risen from the dead.

  For Christians, it is a matter of faith that he existed. We have full confidence in the Bible as God's word and believe the NT to be accurate and true. The NT is a faith book for us, and we fully accept it as such.

  Even if the other ancient records here were evidences taken from followers of Christ or the early Christians, it is still good evidence that a real historical person named Jesus at one time walked the earth, was thought of as more than a man, and was crucified. This is what his church passed on about him. These early Christians went to their deaths proclaiming the truth they knew about our Lord Jesus, most deaths which were horrible and painful ones. Why? I believe many were eyewitnesses to his life, death and resurrection and knew beyond a doubt who he truly was. And we cannot expect those outside the church to accept their testimony or ours for that matter.

  So, I accept the evidence for what it is, a record of which facts were recorded by accounts given by the early church and that is sufficient for me. Like the Scriptures teach "let each of us be fully convinced in his own mind". Peace to all, Lilly

  To waht end will your faith drive you? Where is the Kingdom? Where is paradise? Its been 2000+ years, where is it? Why does he continue to allow wickedness some 2000+ years later, when it was prophesied that these things would end? How far would you believe someone who continuosly promised something but never delivered. Sort of useless when you promise something that outlives the people you promised it too. I think you need to come to grips that Jesus more than likely did not exist, and that "God" really doesn't care about humans, and please don't use the "universal soverignty" issue as that is plain ignorance and avoiding the fact that if you as a lessor creature can do "good things" to your fellow man, then why doesn't "God"?

  Historical records indicate that their were TONS of people named "Jesus" and "Mary", etc. as these were common names of the day. Just because these texts refer to a "Jesus" does not mean it is the one described in the Bible. Most Christians were converted Jews, or Gentiles who were sick of the Roman machine - disgruntled citizens looking for change - and believed anything that might bring change and hope. Just because you are willing to die for something doesn't mean you are right. Look at suicide bombers. How many have seen the resurrected Muhammad? Why are they willing to die? Maybe sort of like the Christians of the first century? Blind faith?

  Would you be Christian if you lived in the Middle East? Asia? India? Japan? etc. Probably not as you would be raised in a different environment and religious upbringing. Yet you would believe that you were right in what ever you believed. Do you not see the conundrum? Religion is a mental crutch no matter where you live - sorry to tell you that...
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  XJW4EVR

  By starting the thread, are you trying to influence others to beleive the way you do, which by your own admission is ultimatedly based on faith? It seems that no matter what proof was given to the contrary of your beliefs, you will eventually play the faith card.

  Hi startingover,

  Yes, it is about faith. The same way that you, by faith, turn the ignition to start your car, the same way that you step into an elevator, or that you traverse a bridge. Faith is an intregal part of life.

  I would even go one step further, the hostile reaction of the anti-theists on this board does nothing for me except reaffirm my faith. Paul wrote that the croos is to them that perish foolishness. Everytime I see an anti-theist say this my faith is strengthened.
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  lovelylil

  sinis,

  Just for the record; my parents were not Christians, did not go to church and knew very little about the Christian God. Yes, I was raised in a Christian nation but did not read the bible until several years after accepting that a God did exist. I was very young at that time, probably around 5. It was before I went to school, that I am sure of. I am currently writing an article about my earliest experiences with God.

  btw: I subscribe to a magazine called "Voice of the Martyrs" and it is filled with stories of people living in non-Christian lands embracing Christianity. While geographic location may make one more accepting of Christianity than others, it does not matter where you are born. God is calling all peoples to himself.

  Narkissos started another thread about the historical Jesus and the bible, you may want wo wiegh in on the discussion over there. Peace, Lilly
• 

  startingover

  I would even go one step further, the hostile reaction of the anti-theists on this board does nothing for me except reaffirm my faith. Paul wrote that the croos is to them that perish foolishness. Everytime I see an anti-theist say this my faith is strengthened.

  My wife and a JW friend both told me the same thing when I showed them why their JW belief system was faulty. What does that indicate to you?
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  XJW4EVR

  What does that indicate to you?

  It indicates that you are acting in accordance with Scripture. Not some Governing Body's interpretation, but what Paul said under direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, Paul answers the question, "What must be in order for what is to be what it is?" He states what is in 1 Corinthians, and answers what must be for this to be happening. So when the anti-theists continually affrim what Scripture says what am I to do? Abandon my belief in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus?
• 

  Tuesday

  It is nearly impossible to gather physical evidence of the Lord Jesus at this time 2000+ years after his death. Jesus did not accumulate wealth and power in this world. He said he had nowhere to "lay his head" even. He did not leave any children behind or possessions at all. We will find no grave for he was risen from the dead.

  Yet we find evidence of various other people from around the world from much further back. Not that anyone is asking for "physical" evidence, but an external account that confirms what the bible said would be nice. The Grave thing, isn't there a town in Japan that claims ownership of the grave of Jesus Christ?

  For Christians, it is a matter of faith that he existed. We have full confidence in the Bible as God's word and believe the NT to be accurate and true. The NT is a faith book for us, and we fully accept it as such.

  If that's the case then why even try to prove his existence externally of the bible?

  Even if the other ancient records here were evidences taken from followers of Christ or the early Christians, it is still good evidence that a real historical person named Jesus at one time walked the earth, was thought of as more than a man, and was crucified.

  How? There are historical accounts of followers of Zeus, Hercules, Odin, Loki, Isis, Ra, etc. If these accounts of Christians worshipping Christ are proof that Jesus existed then all these other Gods did too for the same reason.

  This is what his church passed on about him. These early Christians went to their deaths proclaiming the truth they knew about our Lord Jesus, most deaths which were horrible and painful ones. Why? I believe many were eyewitnesses to his life, death and resurrection and knew beyond a doubt who he truly was. And we cannot expect those outside the church to accept their testimony or ours for that matter.

  People die horrible deaths for beliefs all the time, that does not make them founded in truth. Think of Mayan and Aztec ritualistic human sacrafice, hearing that someone had their heart cut out while they were still alive sound pretty horrific to me, it still doesn't make me think that their religion is based on anything real.

  I thought the point of this post was to show real external evidence that Jesus exhisted? This is an awful lot like a Watchtower article "This will re-affirm your faith....if you just accept what's said here with the explinations given and do not question it any further"
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  funkyderek

  lovelylil:

  You are BOTH misunderstanding the purpose of this thread. It is to provide evidence outside the New Testament that a man named Jesus lived in the time of the early Christian church, was worshipped by his followers, and died by crucifixation.

  That is exactly what I understood the purpose of this thread to be. It is after all in the title of the thread, your comments on the article and the title of the article. My post explicitly stated that this was "a thread you started to provide evidence for the existence of such a person ["the Jesus of Christianity"]. Why, given all that, do you think I have misunderstood?

  Because many on this board and in the world in general, claim there is absolutely NO evidence outside the NT about Jesus, I started this thread.

  Generally the claim is that there is no reliable, independent evidence of the existence of Jesus, a claim you have failed to counter.

  And what is a matter of FAITH is HOW we percieve the Jesus of the NT. Yes, there is evidence he existed, but whether or not he was GOD is a matter of faith.

  No. It's a matter of fact. Either Jesus existed or he did not. Either he was a supernatural being or he was not. There are real, factual scientific answers to those questions. We may not have enough evidence to know what those answers are, but the are still entirely and completely matters that can be investigated based solely on the relevant evidence.

  But this is a public forum and if non-believers give their opinions that NO evidence exists of a Jesus, then we who believe otherwise have a right to post contrary information.

  Absolutely. And if I disagree with you (as I do), I have a right to post a response to that effect (as I have done).

  Also IF as unbelievers you can constantly give opinions against Christianity and the Bible, then we believers can counter with our own information from time to time.

  Of course. And you should expect it to receive the same scrutiny as any other evidentiary claims.

  This thread is mainly for believers so that when someone asks THEM if there is any evidence of Jesus by non-Christian sources, they may point out the information in this article.

  That's what I have a problem with. (Do not take this as some infringements of your right to post your opinion. It is merely a disagreement with that opinion.) You want to surround yourself with evidence that supports a belief you already hold. It's an intellectually dishonest approach, as evidenced by your fallback position that the evidence doesn't really matter as you believe based on "faith" (i.e. without, or even in the face of, evidence).

  That is WHY this article is posted under "bible research". I always thought Bible Research was for those interested in the Bible to begin with.

  It is. I'm fascinated by the bible. It doesn't mean I believe it's an accurate collection of documents.

  Anyway, hope this clears up my intentions.

  Your intentions were clear from the beginning.
• 

  lovelylil

  Derek,

  The thread is for believers who are constantly asked why there is no proof outside the NT for a historical Jesus. Now, they have some references to show people who ask them this Q. Lilly
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  funkyderek

  lovelylil:

  The thread is for believers who are constantly asked why there is no proof outside the NT for a historical Jesus. Now, they have some references to show people who ask them this

  And my responses (given that the inadequacy of the sources you provided had already been shown) were for those same believers, to perhaps get them to ponder why they already strongly believe something without having evidence, and indeed why they are so willing to accept any supporting evidence and yet so quick to dismiss any that casts doubt on their beliefs.