The "Historical Jesus" and Christian Faith

by Narkissos 75 Replies latest jw friends

  • hmike
    hmike
    Does that help with the issue or confuse it even further?

    Thanks for getting back so quickly. I'm still working on it.

    One thing I'm having trouble with is understanding the purpose of the Gospels according to your model. Wasn't part of the intent to bolster the Christian community undergoing persecution by saying, "Jesus didn't stay dead. The Jews and Romans couldn't restain him. He has been vindicated, and you will be too because he will return, vanquish our enemies, and establish his Kingdom, of which you will be a part."

    It appears that from earliest times, these accounts were taken literally. We're talking about a very short time span from original events, to the Gospels, to their use in the church.

    Some other questions, if you don't mind:

    Where did the post-resurrection accounts come from?

    How do Isaiah 53 and prophecies of general resurrection, as in Daniel 12:1-4, fit in to your model?

    Thank you for your patience. Your model raises a lot of questions.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hello again hmike,

    First let me clarify again that I have not offered (at least here on this thread) any specific "model" but a hypothetical dilemma... unless by "my model" you understand, very broadly, my negative assumption that none of the extant Gospels is "mere history". Although it was not the purpose of this thread we can work with that, especially as you seem to focus on the issue of resurrection (which very few scholars would indeed regard as a "hard historical event" afaik).

    Wasn't part of the intent to bolster the Christian community undergoing persecution by saying, "Jesus didn't stay dead. The Jews and Romans couldn't restain him. He has been vindicated, and you will be too because he will return, vanquish our enemies, and establish his Kingdom, of which you will be a part."

    Very generally agreed, although
    - historically persecution was rather the exception than the rule in the early Christian community;
    - the emphasis on Jesus' future return etc. is to be differentiated among the Gospels themselves (in John, for instance, it is clearly reinterpreted in terms of present spiritual inhabitation of the believers, cf. chapter 14).
    Otherwise you are quite right in pointing to the vindication of the crucified (i.e. a priori lawless) as one central meaning of the resurrection/elevation motif, cf. the early discourses of Acts or the use of the book of Wisdom (chapters 2 and 5, where the post mortem elevation of the "righteous" vindicates his course, and his claim to be God's child, in the eyes of the "ungodly") in the Passion narrative. This literary parallel imo shows why and how such a story might have been written, regardless of its possible historical background

    It appears that from earliest times, these accounts were taken literally.

    By the vast majority of Christians, certainly.

    We're talking about a very short time span from original events, to the Gospels, to their use in the church.

    If there were "original events," that is (as per my option n2 against n1). By usual reckoning that means between 40 and 80 years, not that "very short" imo.

    Where did the post-resurrection accounts come from?

    Besides the authors' own literary creativity, popular upbuilding storytelling (including the "charismatically" inspired type perhaps). The fact is that the post-resurrection accounts of the Gospels are widely divergent (from the lack of any apparition on Sunday in the extant Mark, even if some Galilean later apparition was lost, to the stories of Luke which center on Jerusalem, Thomas in John, etc.) and all are constructed according to the specific theological agenda of their authors.

    How do Isaiah 53 and prophecies of general resurrection, as in Daniel 12:1-4, fit in to your model?

    Very well.

    Isaiah 53 doesn't imply resurrection but (in some sense) vicarious suffering. In diverse forms it underlies the basic Gospel scenario and its culmination in crucifixion.

    Daniel 12 doesn't point to an individual's death and resurrection, as you pointed out. Besides the doctrine of general resurrection common to the Pharisees and most of early Christianity (although there are traces of belief of a righteous-only resurrection, especially in Luke) it doesn't relate directly to Jesus' resurrection. Except perhaps the "resurrection of saints" in Matthew 27.

    But, thinking again, I'm not sure I've got your point. Please elaborate if I didn't.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Not to be overlooked is the common-as-air prevalence of all the core bible/gospel/Christian ideas in the world which saturate our consciousness from birth.

    Consequently, it is actually impossible to be objective about any of this.

    However, when I encounter detailed religious beliefs of a foreign (non-Christian) nature--I objectively recoil at how ludicrous, illogical and bizzare they sound to my ears.

    I can only wonder if Christianity innanity would strike all of us instantly were we sheltered from all of it until we were adult and then revealed to us piecemeal in a ceremony of divulgence.

    To think, for example, that the Hindi believe in blue gods makes me laugh out loud. Why? I think of Smurfs before I think of taking any of it seriously. Why? Because nobody I know, trust, respect has ever discussed blue gods with me dead serious and with gravitas.

    So too--and conversely--we are simply so immured with Christianity in all its virulence 24/7 that it is difficult to be shocked by it.

    What can strike us as feckless, obtuse or fanciful can only be some odd variant that comes to our attention.

    For a Protestant, the Catholic lay person's obsession with seeing the "Virgin" Mary in rust stains on water towers or in the burnt side of a grilled cheese sandwich--as an example--the height of ridiculous religious mania seems evident.

    But, for the devout Catholic, reared on countless stories of martyrs, saints and intercessors, etc.---the beauty and awe-inspiring come natural in any report of the "Virgin" Mary appearing.

    What is my point and how does it relate to the Historical Jesus and Christian Faith?

    Imagine a time and a world in which there WAS NO JESUS as yet.

    The Jewish ethos certainly revolved around expectations of some sort of Messiah of some description.

    For the Gentile Roman--the everyday world would be filled with demi-gods, emperor gods, sacrificial ceremonies and placations, auguries, etc.

    The Roman could partly comprehend what Jews were doing in there Temple ceremonies if only because they themselves did something reasonably similar. Yet, to Romans, Jews and Christians (eventually) were atheist because THEY DISBELIEVED MANY GODS! That is what was shocking.

    Many came and went with claims to Messiah-ship. Reports of miracles were not uncommon. After all--why would anybody ever believe such a claim unless some magic, hoodwinkery, flim-flam accompanied the charismatic presentation of a candidate for Messiah?

    Jesus was believed by relatively few.

    With the "miracles" being described as so numerous the world could not contain the description--it makes one wonder how Jesus avoided being taken more seriously than his predecessors with their phoney magic.

    Who would be more disposed to believing him? People (groups) with a similar agenda. Yet, no group embraced him. Neither Pharisee, nor Saducee, nor the officials at the Temple were warmly predisposed. Jesus only attracted the odd man out like a Judas who may have been a radical Sicarii. Fishermen.

    Women were drawn to his peaceable message, certainly. Rabble. Prostitutes. Castoffs from regular society.

    Jesus spoke, attracted crowds, gathered twleve, performed miracles, got into arguments/debates, was arrested and put to death.

    Was any of this different from any other Messiah before him?

    LARGELY, THE CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT WAS THE RESULT OF STORIES CIRCULATED AFTER HIS DEATH.

    Were these fish stories? Exaggerations? Embellishments?

    Since we know there were many, many (later called non-canonical or apocryphal) stories or Gospels about Jesus--this would tend to prove that divergent, contradictory, embellished fancies became widely circulated.

    WHY? If there was only one real and true Jesus who only did real and true things---why so many contradictory tales about him?

    It is far more likely that each group who wanted or needed Jesus to fit a certain preconception model jumped at the chance to BRAND their beliefs as THE JESUS.

    By the time Constantine came along and Paul had a chance to embroider the Platonic ideal into the historical shadows of Judiasm--there were a hundred brands of JESUS and stories to match them!

    What Constantine and the power of Rome were able to achieve was the certain destruction of competing forms of Christianity by Edict, excommunication and the power of banishment.

    In the marketplace of religious fancies, the Brand that could wipe out the competitor was more likely to prevail.

    With the burning of competing Gospels and the banishing of so-called heretics---Christianity was fused into a single (bifurcated!) orthodoxy of Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox until Martin Luther came along.

    With the advent of Protestantism--the whole fracture and retelling started all over again.

    The result is every denomination of Christianity all over again.

    Walk into any Christian Bookstore and look at all the varieties of retelling and the CONTINUING REBRANDING of the Jesus persona!

    It never seems to end.

    Such is the power of myth. It fits today by changing yesterday into a more serviceable model.

  • R.Crusoe
    R.Crusoe

    If you discount the gospels you tend to lose the miracle features and so the guy could well be any duly regarded individual dressed up by history to fulfill previous prophecy!

    This reminds me of JW theorising over OLD scripture and concluding world events indicated an:-

    'Invisible Jesus 1914 style'

    And so way back in the day it is just as possible that a group of 'Russels' got to work identifying any character of reputation, in whatever form, and realising it had to fit that time scale to fulfill all their figures!

    That way they have their Messiah and prophecy for latecomers is recorded in history by humans for humans to control social groups and nations as in fact most organised religions have always done whether including blue gods or virgin births!

  • hmike
    hmike

    If there were "original events," that is (as per my option n2 against n1). By usual reckoning that means between 40 and 80 years, not that "very short" imo

    After 40 years, some ot those around at the time when these events would have taken place would still be alive. Even after 80 years, the children and grandchildren would be around. Even the time of the earliest church fathers is not too far removed. It seems strange that embellishments and fabrications would be so readily accepted as literal historical events among direct descendents of those who would have been present in the historical settings.

    Isaiah 53 doesn't imply resurrection but (in some sense) vicarious suffering. In diverse forms it underlies the basic Gospel scenario and its culmination in crucifixion.

    The implication comes from vs. 10-11:

    ISA 53:10

    Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

    and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,

    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

    and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

    ISA 53:11 After the suffering of his soul,

    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;

    by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,

    and he will bear their iniquities.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hi hmike

    After 40 years, some ot those around at the time when these events would have taken place would still be alive. Even after 80 years, the children and grandchildren would be around. Even the time of the earliest church fathers is not too far removed. It seems strange that embellishments and fabrications would be so readily accepted as literal historical events among direct descendents of those who would have been present in the historical settings.

    Leaving aside my option n1 which would leave no "events" to be remembered by anybody (hence no "witness" objection to the Gospel stories), what do you think are the chances of Palestinian followers of a very different (e.g., nationalistic) Jesus (my option n2), most of which would have been washed out with the Roman-Jewish war, of coming across Greek stories circulated in the diaspora about their hero? And what about the chances of their eventual objections being heard and received in mostly Gentile Christian churches, with a socially established relationship with Christ as their Saviour?

    Be it Paul's original point or not, his argument in 2 Corinthians 5:16 would easily dismiss any suggestion of "another Jesus," even on "historical" grounds: "Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we know (him) no longer in that way."

    Whether they were linked with a "historical" Jesus or not as they claimed to, the tragic fate of 2nd-century "Jewish Christians," rejected by both Pharisee-led Judaism and by the "great Christian church," shows how little hypothetical "witnesses" (let alone their descendents) would have actually weighed.

    About Isaiah 53, it depends what it originally meant, which is still debated. Was the Servant an individual figure (in that case, most likely the prophet now called 2nd Isaiah, of whom we know close to nothing) or a collective one (the exilees suffering on behalf of all Israel)? In the former case, some afterlife hope (not necessarily "resurrection" as later defined) is indeed suggested, for him to be vindicated and seeing the fruits of his works; in the latter case, it is figurative (like the collective "resurrection" of Ezekiel 37). Of course once applied to the basic Gospel scenario including Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection it would be understood as referring to both.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    After 40 years, some ot those around at the time when these events would have taken place would still be alive. Even after 80 years, the children and grandchildren would be around. Even the time of the earliest church fathers is not too far removed. It seems strange that embellishments and fabrications would be so readily accepted as literal historical events among direct descendents of those who would have been present in the historical settings.

    You should really take a look at Papias! And he based his bizarre stories directly on what he had learned from the elders and those who personally knew the apostles.

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    Tuesday:

    If a Christian kills another person because of a "logical extension"of their beliefs or even one step further because of their beliefs more than likely they say it.

    FIrst, a professing Christian can do anything he/'she wishes to do, namely because he/she is not trully "born again." Secondly, please show me any teaching where Jesus stated that the sword was to be the method of conversion. Sadly, the Roman Catholic Church did not apply this in its history. Instead it took the Muslim approach, which I flippantly call, "Mohhammed's believe it, or else."

    However if an atheist commits an atrocity I'm supposed to believe that it's the logical extension of their beliefs or lack there of without any examples.

    First, I believe that you are being dishonest with yourself and others with this statement. The reason I did not site examples was to try and get you to think why I, or any Christian would make such a statement. The reason why I, and other thinking Christians (R.C. Sproul, Greg Koukl, Robert Morey, just to name a few) believe that the atrocities committed by atheists is a natural extension of their beliefs is as follows:

    1. Christians believe that humans are the highest creation of God. The reason Christians believe this is because humanity is the only segment of God's creation that contains the imago dei, or image of God. That is why murder is an affront to moral law (more on this later). 2. If an atheist is correct, and God did not create the universe, in general, and man, in particular, then man is no different than the beasts of the field, the fish in the ses, or the insects crawling in the dirt. If this assumption is true, then it only follows that human life has little or no significance to some atheists.

    Stalin killed for political power, Mao killed for...it also looks like political power... and Khmer Rouge killed for...I can't believe it....it looks like political power. Not one of them says that they killed because there's no God, or because they don't value human life because there's no God.

    Yes, they killed for power. They killed because they had no regard for life, as I have explained above.

    They kill but keep their atheist motives secret, but Christians kill and let their beliefs known to the world.

    What's your point? That atheist atrocities are somehow "better" than Christian atrocities?

    Please enlighten me as to why Christians who are taught "thou shalt not kill" are so open to speaking their beliefs after breaking one of their own commandments

    First, there is no such commandment as "thou shall not kill." The commandment is properly translated rendition of the commandment is "Thou shall not murder." Later in the Mosaic Law, the provision of the "City of Refuge" was instituted in order to protect those that killed a fellowman. Now whule there are many examples of professed Christians breaking this commandment, and I and others will absolutely not justify their actions. In fact, we believe that these people acted contrary to this, and decry their actions.

    while Atheists who are taught no such thing are strangely mute on the subject.

    Why are atheists "strangly mute" about this subject?

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    XJW4EVR:

    Thanks for replying. You actually hit on a couple of points that I was trying to make, I think I just need to clarify my viewpoint and you might even agree with what I'm saying.

    1. Christians believe that humans are the highest creation of God. The reason Christians believe this is because humanity is the only segment of God's creation that contains the imago dei, or image of God. That is why murder is an affront to moral law (more on this later).
    2. If an atheist is correct, and God did not create the universe, in general, and man, in particular, then man is no different than the beasts of the field, the fish in the ses, or the insects crawling in the dirt. If this assumption is true, then it only follows that human life has little or no significance to some atheists.

    I adjusted the formatting there so I could read it a little better to respond, hope you don't mind. The first part is somewhat an opinion I feel because not every christian doesn't kill because they believe humans are the highest creation of God. They don't murder (I'll use this from here on due to your later comment) because the bible tells them not to and it's against the law.

    The second part I don't know which atheists you're talking to. I think you're making a sweeping generalization there and an incorrect one at that. There are many animal rights activists, vegans and so forth that are also atheists. While life may not be held as "sacred" in a religious sense, life is certainly important. I think alot of Christians misinterpret what Atheism really is with this regard. Atheists don't have morals are ridiculous, because humans are a higher order of animals doesn't justify murdering them. Most atheists enjoy their life and wouldn't want their life snuffed out, therefore they usually don't go around murdering people because they're just another species. I don't really say this often, but I'm actually offended that you would generalize atheists or any human like that. I don't think you can find any quote about atheists feeling that way, or quoted in a book as saying not to cherish life, you're actually quoting Christians who demonize atheists. It would be like me saying that "No doubt Christians murder because they read about the mass murders in the Old Testiment" then quoting a bunch of atheists to prove my point. It doesn't really cut it.

    What's your point? That atheist atrocities are somehow "better" than Christian atrocities?

    My point is that you're saying that Atheists murder because they have no regard for human life but fail to provide any proof of it. I say that Christians murder people because they're Christians. People are quoted as saying they're murdering "in God's name". You're saying that Atheists are murdering because they have no regard for human life, if that was the case why aren't they letting their viewpoint be known. Why don't they tell people "I kill because it makes no difference, people are nothing but animals to me." Your original post that I responded to was in response to someone saying that they killed for God, you stated that people had killed because they were atheists. I asked you to provide proof that people had killed for the express reason that they were atheists. I don't think atheist atrocities are better than Christian atrocities, but the motives are somewhat subject. You're postulating that it's a natural progression of their beliefs (siting Christians who are postulating), I say they murdered for political power or to stay in political power. This is not an atheist trait, lots of christians have murdered for the same reason, when they do murder for power they don't say it was because of God they murdered. My point is asking for proof, actual written or oral documentation of someone murdering numerous people because they were atheists (expressly stating that was the motivation). If I stated people murdered with God as the motivation you would ask for no less.

    Now whule there are many examples of professed Christians breaking this commandment, and I and others will absolutely not justify their actions. In fact, we believe that these people acted contrary to this, and decry their actions.

    I'm not simply bringing up Christians who happened to murder. There are alot, I'm not asking you condone their actions at all. People have murdered "for God". There are examples of this, there are no examples of people murdering "for Atheism".

    Why are atheists "strangly mute" about this subject?

    Exactly my question, why are there examples of people murdering other people "for God" and no quotes of Atheists murdering "for Atheism"? They could be killing because they don't regard human life, but they never said so, the people you mentioned happened to kill the people in charge then took power once they were killed. Then they killed people who questioned their rule. Due to the circumstances it seems to me they killed to get in power and stay in power. Christians have done that too, the French Revolution, The British Empire, The Spanish Empire, etc. No one claims their coup detats are anything but that. Because they're atheist and killing to get in power doesn't make it also killing because they don't value life, it is still the oldest reason in the world for murder...jealousy.

    I don't really wish to debate the philosophy of why Atheists technically would murder because they don't value human life, I want specific proof of an atheist murdering and stating that exact reason as a motive. If you can't do that then you're just postulating a motive for murder and trying to pin it on Atheism. I don't doubt you are Christian and don't condone murder, it doesn't change the fact christians have murdered and sited God as their motivation to do so.

    Thanks again for your response, I hope you can site examples this post.

  • lrkr
    lrkr

    I couldn't resist hitting the bait. Your original questions- which is preferrable to the beliver.

    I say Option 1 is preferrable to the beliver. This is because a "believer" believes in the historical Jesus and the holiness of the Church. If you're going to pull the rug out from under the beliver by saying that there is no historical Jesus, at least the Church is left to stand as the one true source of communion with God. After all, you did assume that the Church put together this great mythology which unites, comforts, and encourages the masses.

    What is the saying- The believer firmly believes in Christ and the one true church, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic- something like that.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit