Natural disasters in past and future paradise.

by Awakened07 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Awakened07

The future earthly paradise is supposed to be a calm, peaceful place where people can live forever in harmony with each other and nature, a place where nothing bad will happen, and suffering, death and destruction does not exist.
There is a problem here (well, there are several, but here's another). What about natural disasters? Easy-peasy to answer; Jehovah will make it so those never happen, right?
-We now know (or should know) that all of natures dangers have natural causes, and are not caused by Satan or God (or their minions). Earth quakes and volcanoes are (mostly) caused by plate tectonics, tsunamis are a bi-product of the same. Hurricanes, tornadoes, cyclones, storms etc. are caused by the sun heating up the atmosphere creating areas of different temperature and therefore pressure which in turn causes winds of various degrees of strength. Lightning is a bi-product of this (with a couple of contributing factors).
The universe itself is a violent place, with many dangers in store for life on earth. Although it doesn't happen too often, asteroids can crash down through the atmosphere at any moment and create havoc. Gamma rays from exploding stars can sweep the planet and eradicate most life in an instant.
And on and on.
The obvious answer is of course that in paradise, Jehovah will actually personally protect mankind from these disasters with his 'active force'.
-Did Jehovah have a firm grip of the continental plates when Adam and Eve lived? Was it his intention to hold that firm grip? Did he "let it go" because Adam and Eve sinned? If we look at scientific findings, there's nothing to suggest this within the last 6000 years or so; the plates have been moving for hundreds of millions, likely billions of years.

But even if we look away from scientific findings (as you do...); it begs the question; Why would God create the earth this way in the first place? If he intends to physically hold the continental plates in place with his 'force' in the future paradise to protect mankind from earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis, why not create earth as a massive 'block' in the first place, one that couldn't generate such natural disasters?
Of course, when it comes to the atmosphere, some believe (JWs believe this) that there was originally a water vapor canopy surrounding the earth (from which the flood waters came), and that such a canopy would both provide better protection from radiation, meteorites, etc., and also would see to it that heat was distributed evenly over the globe, so weather would be more stable (and I guess they believe that such a canopy will be put in place again in the future paradise to give the same protection). The problem with this canopy model is that (and I won't bother going into detail here, but here's a link) if put in place, it would create such a huge atmospheric pressure that it would be impossible to live on earth. Both the pressure and heat would be immense.
I guess one could say "Well - Jehovah can do anything, so there!"
OK, but if Jehovah can do anything, you should forget about the whole canopy thing (actually, you could stop thinking critically altogether, but let's not go there). There would be no need for the canopy; he could just create the rain necessary for the flood directly, protect earth in any way he wanted directly by stopping radiation and any asteroids etc.
"Yeah, OK - I'll just ditch the canopy hypothesis then. No big deal for me."
-But then why directly protect earth from already existing outside harm, when instead he could have created a universe with no harmful radiation, no "loose cannon" rocks hurling through space, and a 'rock solid' block of earth where earth quakes, volcanoes and tsunamis could not form in the first place?
Does the universe show that God once held it all firmly in place, and "let all hell break loose" because two people were 'naughty'? No, the universe shows every sign of always having been a dangerous, dynamic place, the earth has constantly (in a geological time scale) been hammered by asteroids and meteorites, the earth's crust has always been moving causing quakes, volcanoes and tsunamis, harmful radiation has always been there, storms and floods have been commonplace (although not global floods). 'Always' as in a time period far enough back (long before humans) so as to make the other argument fall flat.
-So if it's 'always' been that way, and must have been so even through the original paradise (if we for the sake of argument say it existed), why would the future paradise be any different? And why is the universe (and earth) created to be such a violent place to begin with?
sir82

Official JW response is point to the Bible account where Jesus camed the windstorm and say "See? Jesus can control the weather, which is what he will do in the paradise as well."
And for the typical non-thinking JW, that answer is more than sufficient.
Anyone bringing up the points you did would at the very least be accused of "lacking faith", and more likely be called an "apostate."
Awakened07

Official JW response is point to the Bible account where Jesus camed the windstorm and say "See? Jesus can control the weather, which is what he will do in the paradise as well."
Yes, that's the kind of argument I was trying to refute.
Anyone bringing up the points you did would at the very least be accused of "lacking faith", and more likely be called an "apostate."
-Are you calling me a ... *gasp* ... apostate!?
Awakened07

A shameless bump, since I wrote so much.
I guess this is for the most part only controversial to JWs. But I do think I have a point here.
Mr. Majestic

Awakened.
Liked your post very much. Not a lot you can argue with really. Thought the same myself over the years. I will try to put a few points to try to see an alternative. I don’t necessarily believe what I am going to say; just trying to see the points from another angle.
The thing I thought about the water canopy is this; if the water of the seas was taken up (if that were possible) and there were no problems with it being high in outer space, then the pressures would be taken off of the earths crust, therefore it would reduce the pressure on the tectonic plates reducing the amount of movement and activity that causes the problems and catastrophes on earth. This obviously didn’t happen any time in the recent past, but it is a thought that I have considered if it might make any difference to the way the plates and volcanoes react. It would also take away the problem of Tsunami’s, being that the seas would be a lot smaller.
As for asteroids and meteors, you would have to say that there is nothing but god that would stop them, although the theory is that Jupiter is there so that it "mops" up our solar system. But you only have to look at the moon to see how many things have hit that, and the moon is obviously younger than the earth. I don’t see that any water canopy could stop anything from hitting the earth. So it would be purely down to god, or Bruce Willis….
The point that you make about the dangers that are there in regards to "loose cannon Rocks" hurling about the place, if you really wanted to stretch a point, and again I am not say that I believe this at all, but the controversial writer Velikovsky wrote about interplanetary collisions in times past (fitting it in many instances with the biblical accounts of the flood, Joshua and the sun standing still, etc..). If he is right and god used such drastic action, there would have been a lot of debrie floating about as a result. If this is to be believed, then that could explain why there are these rocks shooting around, which would have not been there had man on earth been good….
As for the harmful radiation, you could say that the sun warms up the earth, being just the right distance away. You could then ask the question, was it only the earth that needed to be warm? If it was gods will for men to live on other planets, then it would be needed for other planets as well. So like people sitting around the fire, you would sit where it was good for you to get warm, but you wouldn’t go too close so that it was harmful.
If it was gods will to put life on other planets near by then it would need something different to attain the temperature needed if he was going to try to put life on Mars for example, being the temperature on Mars is -63° C on average. It would need a different enviroment to earths to keep it at a temperature that would suit life as we know it…. So it is not so much that god put our atmosphere there to protect us, which it obvioulsy does, but more for a regulating of temperature, and so the sun is there for other planets too….
I’m waffeling now. But I was very interested to see what you wrote because it has been a thought that I have had for ages. Just the way that earth seems to be constructed proves it was never designed to be inhabitted forever.
The points that I have made above are trying to defend the theory that god might not have made the earth in such a bad fashion and that what we see as "how the earth is made" could have been made according to the belifes in the bible and the "perfect earth". It would certainly take some faith to believe……
PS On the point of exploding stars, I don’t know for sure, but, I didn’t think that they have found an exploding star inside our own galaxiy. Again, if this is true, maybe exploding stars was a thing of the past as the universe expanded, and all that we are seeing now is a delay in time going back millions of years to when the universe was much younger. If I was out to prove the "perfect earth", then I would suggest that exploding stars was a thing of the past….
Leolaia

Just goes to show what happens when sentimental idealism runs smack up against hard, cold reality.
Moxie

So if it's 'always' been that way, and must have been so even through the original paradise (if we for the sake of argument say it existed), why would the future paradise be any different? And why is the universe (and earth) created to be such a violent place to begin with?
...Well He works in mysterious ways doesn't He? lol
zack

Good points. The more we learn about the Earth and the Universe, the sillier JW arguments become. One can sympathize with cultures of 5000 years ago which used the spirits as a way of explaining natural phenomena. But given all we know about the physical world, we can see the "explanations" for what they are.
JW's want to hold on to the fantasy like so millions of others. They really do not want "truth", but sadly prefer conjecture.
One day the Sun will use up all its fuel long after the Earth has ceased to be habitable to life as we know it. The solar system will become dust and hot gases like a million other systems before it. Religion helps us to think we're special and that our home will never be destroyed. History says otherwise.
Awakened07

Mr. Majestic, thanks for the lengthy reply.

I will try to put a few points to try to see an alternative. I don’t necessarily believe what I am going to say; just trying to see the points from another angle.
Most of the time I try to think "from the other side" myself to test my own conclusions, but when faced with other people's ideas one can still sometimes be surprised and have a few 'a-ha! -moments. That's the fun in debating. I know you don't believe these things exactly, but I choose to reply to them one by one here as if you did:
The thing I thought about the water canopy is this; if the water of the seas was taken up (if that were possible) and there were no problems with it being high in outer space, then the pressures would be taken off of the earths crust, therefore it would reduce the pressure on the tectonic plates reducing the amount of movement and activity that causes the problems and catastrophes on earth. This obviously didn’t happen any time in the recent past, but it is a thought that I have considered if it might make any difference to the way the plates and volcanoes react. It would also take away the problem of Tsunami’s, being that the seas would be a lot smaller.
Religious people often complain that their ideas haven't been tested properly by science, or that science poo-poos the idea right away, but the various canopy models have actually been studied surprisingly thoroughly, by mathematicians and physicists who initially believed in the canopy model (it's all in the link in my first post here; a lengthy read, but interesting). 'Outer space' models have been proposed as well.
You have an interesting 'hypothesis' here though, and one I haven't seen before and haven't thought of myself. The thing here is that in this context we must combine 1) what we know about the universe with 2) the biblical story.
There's no point in even arguing the canopy thing if we view the first part of Genesis as being figurative and not literal. If Adam and Eve were figurative too, that would kinda negate the point of ~6000 years of human existence, but most of the big Christian religions and their followers believe the latter. And JWs too. So that's our starting point.
So if we say the oceans were lifted 'on high', or created there in the first place (out in space), and then put in place later (notwithstanding that I haven't actually researched how this would have affected the continental plates and their formation and movement), this would have had to have happened less than 6000 years ago to fit the biblical story (because otherwise we're back to having earth quakes in paradise).
That is to say; the lifting could have happened at any time if one believes in an old earth (as JWs do), but the 'putting it back' would then have to coincide (in this context) with mankind's first sin, and subsequent banishment from paradise (because earth quakes etc. are part of the 'punishment').
The Bible even doesn't say it happened then, so we'll have to move it up to the flood. That means that all (or most of) the waters in the oceans would have been placed there from outer space during the flood, and that subsequently, earthquakes, tsunamis etc. etc. started to happen.
A little late for being a punishment for Adam and Eve's sin, and there is absolutely nothing that physically shows this happened within the last 4-6000 years (or at all, I should say). There's also the problem that if water were to drop through the atmosphere like that, it would be boiling hot when it hit earth, even if it started out as ice. But we can put that problem away on the supernatural "bank account" for now.
There is a third problem here too, that when postulating a hypothesis that will support the biblical account, one has to actually include the biblical account in the first place, and it clearly says that the oceans on earth were created on the third day, by "gathering together" the waters and separating them from land.
Velikovsky wrote about interplanetary collisions in times past (fitting it in many instances with the biblical accounts of the flood, Joshua and the sun standing still, etc..). If he is right and god used such drastic action, there would have been a lot of debrie floating about as a result. If this is to be believed, then that could explain why there are these rocks shooting around, which would have not been there had man on earth been good….
This is really a scientific statement, or hypothesis if you will, and has to be backed up with data. Have there been huge planetary collisions? It certainly seems that way, but within the last 4000 years or so? I'm not sure I even have to say anything more than that. But in case I do; you'd think such collisions would have also made a huge impact on other civilizations, and while many have flood stories, you'd have to find stories and astrological or astronomical findings in manuscripts coinciding with it, and the sun standing still etc. too (same time period etc.). And evidence in geology, etc.
There's also the point that a just God probably wouldn't let these rocks hurl around afterwords so they could hurt innocent people in the future, who had nothing to do with the sin... Oh wait.... *slaps forehead*
As for the harmful radiation, you could say that the sun warms up the earth, being just the right distance away. You could then ask the question, was it only the earth that needed to be warm? If it was gods will for men to live on other planets, then it would be needed for other planets as well. [....]
So it is not so much that god put our atmosphere there to protect us, which it obvioulsy does, but more for a regulating of temperature, and so the sun is there for other planets too….
I'm not following this exactly. Other planets could have been placed in similar orbits as the earth (but on a different 'plane'), to get the same heat. They wouldn't crash or need to interfere with each other. Especially not if created and put in place that way. And/or there are billions of other planetary systems he could use and place a planet 'just right' in each one of them for this purpose.
But my point was really that there is harmful radiation coming from the sun, but also from the rest of the universe. If directly created (and sustained), the sun could have been made in a way that would make it harmless to us (and the other planet's life) in the first place. No dangerous particles or dangerous electromagnetic radiation. The universe could have been a "radiation free" place. Of course - this would have been a rather different universe from the one we know, but since God created it from scratch and can do what he wants...
The atmosphere (and the magnetic field of earth) protects us, but it seems a little 'sloppy', redundant and ineffective to first create danger in a place supposedly specifically tailored to sustain physical life, for then to create protection against the danger you first created. Plus, the atmosphere only protects us to a certain degree as it is.
The points that I have made above are trying to defend the theory that god might not have made the earth in such a bad fashion and that what we see as "how the earth is made" could have been made according to the belifes in the bible and the "perfect earth". It would certainly take some faith to believe……
There is the problem of the time period involved (approx. 6000 years to the sin) as discussed above, and the lack of physical, geological evidence, but rather evidence to the contrary of a dynamic earth with drifting continental plates for hundreds of millions of years (long before mankind, both on an evolutionary and biblical time scale).
PS On the point of exploding stars, I don’t know for sure, but, I didn’t think that they have found an exploding star inside our own galaxiy. Again, if this is true, maybe exploding stars was a thing of the past as the universe expanded, and all that we are seeing now is a delay in time going back millions of years to when the universe was much younger. If I was out to prove the "perfect earth", then I would suggest that exploding stars was a thing of the past….

Since we know quite well how stars 'work', our own sun included, we know that at some point in time the star will have used up its fuel, and will explode/implode. We can follow the life - death cycle of stars throughout the universe, and combined with the knowledge about our own star, there is nothing to suggest that exploding stars are a thing of the past.
Undecided

It's explained in the bible at Nahum Chapter 1 verses 1 thru 6. He uses weather, earth quakes, volcanos etc. to get even with men who don't follow his commands. All you need is the bible to understand everything.
Ken P.

Natural disasters in past and future paradise.

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