There has been a recent thread debating the intelligence of JWs. I was going to post on that thread but, alas, I have gotten too verbose and have decided to start a new thread. I was – and am – a nerd. I always loved studying and, to this day, I’m quite the bookworm. Of course, when I was a Witness, I looked for any sort of ‘proof’ to support my belief that I had the truth. Throughout my teenage years, this was partially supported by the fact that those of my peers who left the religion were dumber than me. I don’t mean to sound cocky, but it was always the ‘cool’ kids – the ones who slouched in their chairs, gave lousy talks and seemed to cop an ‘attitude’ that left. I, and my friends, the ones who loved studying & discussing intellectual topics by and large remained Witnesses as we morphed from adolescence to adulthood. Needless to say, I thought to myself: “Of course the dumb kids leave the truth, because they’re too lazy to find out for themselves that it’s the truth.” And I think that was an accurate assessment. See, I was such a nerd, I would have been made fun of in school whether I was a Witness or not. I was such a nerd that being a Witness was EASY for me – I always did well on my talks. In fact, the last talk I ever gave, I just got up & gave it with no preparation whatsoever. Afterward, the School overseer said: “I can tell you put a lot of preparation into that talk”. Commenting was easy, so was talking to people at the doors (relatively). What’s more, worldly things didn’t appeal to me; I had no desire to go to clubs, or to do drugs, or get a tattoo or celebrate Xmas. Compare this to others in the congregation. They got along with their schoolmates and probably resented the fact that they had to keep ‘worldlings’ at arm’s length. They probably disliked studying, and so found the additional requirement of studying for the meetings to be additionally burdensome. When they commented, they knew their comments weren’t anything special, and they struggled to give decent talks. Going out in service was an embarrassment. So, in time, they left. So… When I left the religion, I was left with an odd quandary: I left for intellectual reasons and so I wondered if all those who left before me were, in fact, smarter than me and if all those who are still JWs are less intelligent than me. This didn’t seem right, as I had a tough time believing that I was smarter than all 7 million JW, and I also disliked the idea that I was dumber than all the non-nerds who left before me. My wife pointed out, however, that the non-bookwormish people who left (that is, those who left because they wanted to be ‘bad’ as opposed to leaving due to doctrinal issues), probably always felt that something wasn’t right w/in the religion. As I had an entire support network of 70+ Witness relatives & was constantly propped up; being told I was a good speaker and so on, I never felt that something wasn’t right. So, in a way, those who weren’t as book-smart excelled in common sense. In his book “Why People Believe Weird Things”, Michael Shermer spends an entire chapter explaining how smart people can be duped into falling for ‘weird things’. Here’s his conclusion (in a nut-shell): Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. Let me offer one such Witness example. I knew of JW who wondered how God could see into the future if we had free-will. That is, if our future hasn’t happened yet, how could God prophesy about what was going to happen? While this stumbled some, I reasoned thusly: Perhaps God’s superior intelligence can merely extrapolate better than we can, much as we can extrapolate better than our pets. For instance, I can ‘prophesy’ with reasonable accuracy, that I will wake tomorrow between 6 and 8AM, that the temperature will be ~40 degrees F, that I will drive in a car, that I will use my microwave, and so on. My cats, on the other hand, can make no such prophecies. Likewise, God can ‘extrapolate’ (i.e., foretell) far better than we can. Long story short – I was skilled at defending an absurd teaching…
Witness intelligence vs. stupidity
by Shepherd Book 12 Replies latest jw friends
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darth frosty
There has been a recent thread debating the intelligence of JWs. I was going to post on that thread but, alas, I have gotten too verbose and have decided to start a new thread. I was – and am – a nerd. I always loved studying and, to this day, I’m quite the bookworm. Of course, when I was a Witness, I looked for any sort of ‘proof’ to support my belief that I had the truth. Throughout my teenage years, this was partially supported by the fact that those of my peers who left the religion were dumber than me.
I don’t mean to sound cocky, but it was always the ‘cool’ kids – the ones who slouched in their chairs, gave lousy talks and seemed to cop an ‘attitude’ that left. I, and my friends, the ones who loved studying & discussing intellectual topics by and large remained Witnesses as we morphed from adolescence to adulthood. Needless to say, I thought to myself: “Of course the dumb kids leave the truth, because they’re too lazy to find out for themselves that it’s the truth.” And I think that was an accurate assessment.
See, I was such a nerd, I would have been made fun of in school whether I was a Witness or not. I was such a nerd that being a Witness was EASY for me – I always did well on my talks. In fact, the last talk I ever gave, I just got up & gave it with no preparation whatsoever. Afterward, the School overseer said: “I can tell you put a lot of preparation into that talk”. Commenting was easy, so was talking to people at the doors (relatively). What’s more, worldly things didn’t appeal to me; I had no desire to go to clubs, or to do drugs, or get a tattoo or celebrate Xmas.
Compare this to others in the congregation. They got along with their schoolmates and probably resented the fact that they had to keep ‘worldlings’ at arm’s length. They probably disliked studying, and so found the additional requirement of studying for the meetings to be additionally burdensome. When they commented, they knew their comments weren’t anything special, and they struggled to give decent talks. Going out in service was an embarrassment. So, in time, they left.
So… When I left the religion, I was left with an odd quandary: I left for intellectual reasons and so I wondered if all those who left before me were, in fact, smarter than me and if all those who are still JWs are less intelligent than me. This didn’t seem right, as I had a tough time believing that I was smarter than all 7 million JW, and I also disliked the idea that I was dumber than all the non-nerds who left before me. My wife pointed out, however, that the non-bookwormish people who left (that is, those who left because they wanted to be ‘bad’ as opposed to leaving due to doctrinal issues), probably always felt that something wasn’t right w/in the religion.
As I had an entire support network of 70+ Witness relatives & was constantly propped up; being told I was a good speaker and so on, I never felt that something wasn’t right. So, in a way, those who weren’t as book-smart excelled in common sense.
In his book “Why People Believe Weird Things”, Michael Shermer spends an entire chapter explaining how smart people can be duped into falling for ‘weird things’. Here’s his conclusion (in a nut-shell): Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.
Let me offer one such Witness example. I knew of JW who wondered how God could see into the future if we had free-will. That is, if our future hasn’t happened yet, how could God prophesy about what was going to happen? While this stumbled some, I reasoned thusly: Perhaps God’s superior intelligence can merely extrapolate better than we can, much as we can extrapolate better than our pets.
For instance, I can ‘prophesy’ with reasonable accuracy, that I will wake tomorrow between 6 and 8AM, that the temperature will be ~40 degrees F, that I will drive in a car, that I will use my microwave, and so on. My cats, on the other hand, can make no such prophecies. Likewise, God can ‘extrapolate’ (i.e., foretell) far better than we can. Long story short – I was skilled at defending an absurd teaching…
Now for some advice to you. Get over yourself and your presumed intellect. -
Shepherd Book
Darth - thanks for formatting. At work, on Windows, I seem unable to post at all, while at home, on a Mac I can't get the formatting right. My apologies if the post came across as cocky or arrogant, but there was a recent thread in which a few people claimed that all Witnesses are stupid (sorry, can't find the thread). I don't think that's the case, and that was the point of my post. Most people on this forum probably take a certain pride in the fact that they've had the smarts to see the Watchtower Society for what it really is. Once out, there is a tendency to think that those who are still in the religion are 'stupid' in some way. So, I was also trying to point out that it's possible that there are some highly intelligent people who Witness - not merely despite their smarts, but because of them. I can see how my example at the end of my initial post came across as trying to sound intelligent; maybe a different example, in which I was not smart, will be more to your liking... I always grappled with the fact that God, in the old testament, was such a blood-thirsty war-monger. I could never get this to jive with a supposed 'God of love'. It always bothered me. I hated discussing it, because I couldn't think of a way to satisfactorily explain it. Now, I bet there are people still in the religion who can come up with an explanation that satisfies them. Heck, I bet there are people on this forum who used to have a great way to explain that. I wasn't one of them. A person smarter than me, therefore, probably can explain it away and remain in the religion.
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darth frosty
I recently had a conversation with a dub, who in 6th grade thru high school was a good friend of mine. I was like you, never needed help to give talks even at the tender age of 8. Gave great comments the whole spiel. Well, I ran into this friend who always wanted to do well in the 'truth' but just wasn't there. He was DF'd a couple of times and finally left for good.
When I saw him we were catching up and I assured him not to feel bad talking to me(he was still DF'd) and I tried to ease his mind by telling him all I knew of the cult.
Wrong. He was still trapped by the conditioning. He said that he felt in his heart it is the right religion.
You see, even tho some may have left the BORG in body and they think mind, there is always those spots where the conditioning kicks in. A lot who left young, may have just not been able to put up with the stress of a high control group. Its not a matter of a hidden level of smarts or intuition, it is a matter of psychological survival. -
Shepherd Book
Darth- Your example is a great example of another aspect to leaving / not leaving the religion. Certainly not all leave because they uncover the truth about the truth. Some leave simply because they want to smoke! There were definitely people who left for psychological reasons, just as there are people who were kicked out (DF'd) but still believe it's true. Again, I was just responding to the 'Witnesses are stupid' theory.
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Tired of the Hypocrisy
I think most of them are really dumb. I have been here in this little town for going on three years now and I gotta tell you, the ones here are REETAAARDED! The one's related to my wife in particular. They are such strong witlesswes because they are cloed to any other thought. It is like they are programmed to wake up go preach, work a menial job, study washtowel propaganda and judge everyone if they don't go to meeting and service. Even if they are drunks, wife abusers, and asswipes with a third grade education.
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Gopher
I too was one who took some pride in being able to explain and defend the twisted pretzel-logic of the Watchtower Society. I knew the ins and outs of even the obscure part of their 'truth', such as how to explain the seven Gentile times concluded in 1914.
I think you touched on the difference between book smarts and emotional intelligence. Either of those reasons, though, is good reason to leave the JW's behind. Their explanations do not hold up to logic or to the Bible, and as for emotional intelligence, the JW's seem obtuse (as I was) to the fact of how darn offensive the JW message is to people. Other religions also hold some offensive views, but the JW's were quite in-your-face about it. "Listen or die" is not an emotionally intelligent thing or kind thing to say, but that was and is the basic message of the WT Society that we were called on to go preach.
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Princess Daisy Boo
Interesting theory, but I don't think you can generalise about whether smarter people leave and dumb people stay... I think that there are people of all levels of intellect in and out the borg. And if you are going to talk about intellect, I believe that there are different types of intelligence. Perhaps some peoples talents suit the dubs better than others!
I was a born in witness and I was an absolutely average witness! I never took any interest in studying the bible or the literature that they spewed out. That fact did not make me not smart! When it came to things I love and enjoy, I am very smart and studious!
Just my 2 cents.
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jaguarbass
Theres all kind of people wired all different ways as a result of genetics and enviroment. I know people who left because they cant follow the rules and yet they still beleive and I know people who left because they know its not the truth.
People think in compartments. A person could be very smart with numbers but foolish in other ways.
If a person back before the information age was raised as a witness, it would take some time to find information to debunk the falsehoods. But then 75 came and freed anyone who wanted to be free.
The people that I personally know today that are witnesses appear to me to be in their comfort zone. They have no reason or desire to leave. To leave would require more energy and thinking and personall responsibility than to stay.
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Caedes
Now for some advice to you. Get over yourself and your presumed intellect.
I watched idiocracy the other day, nice to see it in action...
I think people of all kinds of ability and intelligence can be witnesses and people of all kinds of ability and intelligence can leave for lots of different reasons. It is impossible to say what makes people stay or leave, because most people don't leave for a single reason. Some people might stay in just because they have no desire to lose friends and family. Others might feel that JWs only show conditional love, or that their hatred of 'wordly people' shows them to be egotistical and selfish.
My own situation was that I love learning and studying but I always hated being forced to study the publications because they seemed superficial. I chose for a variety of reasons to live my own life rather than the one dictated by the witnesses. I'm sure if you asked my mother she would tell you I chose to be 'bad' although I prefer to think of it as living a normal life. I don't think even I could tell you which was the the most important reason for my choice to leave.
I know a guy who is very intelligent, very kind, and a dedicated witness, he has a good looking wife and kids a nice big house and a good job. If I were in his shoes I'm not sure I would give it all up either.