Heaven..who goes, who stays, and since when????

by oompa 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • oompa
    oompa

    I had a post the day before memorial about what is wrong with the service, thanks for the many responses. I have not been comfortable at that service for years (passing and not eating?), and I was always taught only anointed partake, and that only anointed were in the first century Christian congregation. I was also taught that once they 144k were sealed in 1935, only "replacements" for bad anointed could be chosen.

    That means that early Christians had not choice but heaven, and apparently so all the way up til 1935???? That is a whole lot of years that almost everyone was bad. Likewise, it seems WT closed the pearly gates in 1935, only to reopen them in 2007 with a new light change.

    Does anyone know of ANY scripture that indicates that all early Christians could only have the heavenly hope? Maybe there were already people on earth with a heavenly hope, and were just not invited to memorial.....oompa

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Does anyone know of ANY scripture that indicates that all early Christians could only have the heavenly hope?

    There is no "earthly hope" as such in the NT, aside from the apocalyptic scenario in Revelation that sort of merges heaven with earth at the end of time. More to the point, there is no division of hopes or destinies between faithful Christians -- all together share the same hope and reward. Here are some relevant texts:

    "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called: one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.... so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.... And so God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 4:3-7, 2:6-7).

    "Holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess....[Abraham] was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God...All these [faithful men of old] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.... Instead, they were longing for a better country -- a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them....And so you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant...For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come" (Hebrews 3:1, 11:10, 13-16, 12:22-24, 13:14).

    "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me ... straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Philippians 3:10-21).

    "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life....He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant, and since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. We, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit...For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal... We have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, for while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" (2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 3:12-18, 4:17-18, 5:1-4).

    "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise...God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons...So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir." (Galatians 3:15-29, 4:4-7).

  • Barbie Doll
    Barbie Doll

    Oompa------I go to heaven and you can stay. lol lol lol

    alt

  • oompa
    oompa
    Loelaia: There is no "earthly hope" as such in the NT,

    Man am I slow....it is hard to shake 40+ years of constant teaching. Do you really feel there is no evidence at all of a earthly paradise hope....ala Garden of Eden? Always appreciate your knowledge btw................oompa

    One of my points of skipping the memorial was that I feel so out of place being a dirt lover, but what the hey do I know, I was raised with no other option but eternal nothingness. So it just seemed to me only the flyers should be there.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Heh, i'm going, too ;) Don't need no ticket. It's automatic.

    S

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    That's a JW teaching that is largely based on OT passages about the restoration of Israel and the chiliasm of Revelation, but which constructs its own idiosyncratic scenario. The original scenario of Revelation is that all faithful Christians will undergo the great tribulation and die (for all who refuse to worship the image of the Beast or refuse the mark of the Beast would be put to death), and all the martyrs in death go to heaven where they are assembled before the throne in a vast multitude. Then after the destruction of the wicked and the creation of a new heaven and earth, God makes earth his abode again (as it was in the Garden of Eden), and he restores the Garden of Eden and the heavenly Jerusalem (where all the faithful were assembled) on the earth. The earth is nowhere depicted as becoming a "paradise"; in fact, the city walls explicitly enclose the paradise and keep it away from the wicked being tortured outside of New Jerusalem. It should also be stressed that this scenario in Revelation is not at all representative of what is in Paul -- who himself may have had a very different scenario in mind. Check out my post on what "paradise" was really believed to be in early Christianity and Judaism:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/155679/2851044/post.ashx#2851044

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    You've heard the joke about Peter advising new arrivals to have the run of heaven, except, don't open "that door". A newbie finally plucks up the courage, and asks why not?

    "There's 144,000 Witnesses in there, and they think they are the only ones here."

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    There is no "earthly hope" as such in the NT, aside from the apocalyptic scenario in Revelation that sort of merges heaven with earth at the end of time. More to the point, there is no division of hopes or destinies between faithful Christians -- all together share the same hope and reward. Here are some relevant texts:

    Leolaia,

    On the contrary, there is no heavenly hope such as the WTS and most of Christianity teach today. You are correct in saying that there is no division of hopes or destinies between faithful Christians and the relevant text you use demonstrates this for us: This is also true for the rest of humanity that will be resurrected into this Kingdom along with them.

    "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called: one Lord, one faith , one baptism ; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.... so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.... And so God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 4:3-7, 2:6-7).

    Where in this text does it teach we go to heaven? Nowhere!. Where in this text does it teach that we will someday exist as non-human beings? Nowhere! Is the body of Christ human? Yes! Are we seated in the heavenly realms as disciples of Jesus Christ while still here on earth? Yes! This goes along with the authority given to us to baptize, making disciples that will function in this Kingdom and preach the word, a commission that originated with God. There is only one hope and that hope does not include the Law. That hope is in Christ and the immortality he will establish here on an earth ruled by Jesus Christ who will return here once again as a human being.

    "Holy brothers , who share in the heavenly calling , fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess....[Abraham] was looking forward to the city with foundations , whose architect and builder is God...All these [faithful men of old] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.... Instead, they were longing for a better country -- a heavenly one . Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them....And so you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God . You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly , to the church of the firstborn , whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant ...For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come " (Hebrews 3:1, 11:10, 13-16, 12:22-24, 13:14).

    Is the heavenly calling that we fix our thoughts on much better than the Law which was God’s plan for the human race until then? Yes! It was the function of Hebrews to make this distinction to the Hebrews. The verse does not say that we go to such a place. The word heaven which is their substitute for God simply denotes this fact. Is this heavenly Jerusalem to exist here on earth? Yes! Are the thousands of angels we approach in joyful assembly human? Yes! They are identified as the church of the firstborn whose names are found in the book of life in heaven. Where does this teach that we go to someplace else at this future time? Nowhere! Was the apostle and high priest whom we confess human? Yes! Will this high priest still be human when he will rule here on earth once again? Yes! Acts 1:11.

    And the rest of the verses can be shown to apply the same way. The heavenly hope is all based upon the assumption that words like heaven imply something far away, invisible and mystical. But the word simply stands for God and authority from God among other things which will prevail when our Lord returns. The heavenly hope the WTS is selling is fiction as is similar doctrines in other Christian denominations.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Leolaia,

    I had some time so I thought to use it and examine the other verses you provided as proof.

    "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life....He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant, and since we have such a hope, we are very bold.

    Here we learn that we represent Christ and even smell like him when preaching to the world. We are ministers of a new covenant which is our hope. And that covenant is what? 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. Yes, the kingdom and an earthly one that the Father authorized at that complete with wine he will drink with them.

    We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. We, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit...For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal... We have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, for while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" (2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 3:12-18, 4:17-18, 5:1-4).

    Christ was transfigured but unlike Moses radiant face, Christ did not hide his transfiguration which embraced his whole body and our hope is to transfigured just as he was. In both cases the glory that resulted was human. The tent in which they now dwell is this mortal body we got from Adam. That heavenly dwelling they are looking forward to be clothed in dwelling now in the heaven is the immortal human body that Christ in heaven will provide at the resurrection. But nowhere do these verses teach that we go there to get it. Christ returns and provides it here on earth. Our heavenly dwelling is tied into our hope in Christ. Paul made a special point to bring such human immortality to our attention when writing the Corinthians. Christ did it another way by comparing those resurrected to angels. Their long lives attest to this reality.

    "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ . There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise...God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons...So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir ." (Galatians 3:15-29 , 4:4-7 ).

    As Sons of God we are still human but without sin because of our baptism and the conduct we cloth ourselves in. And we are heirs but heirs to what? What was Abraham an heir to? An earthly Kingdom and in this case a Kingdom here on earth ruled by Christ in which such heirs will play an important role. There is absolutely nothing here that teaches that we go someplace called heaven nor are we changed into something non-human. I went through all this back in the early 1970;s and even wrote the WTS a letter about it and so did several others I learned later. People are looking at and abusing words that they do not understand. This has been going on for a long time and no one notices. Even if they see that the verses do not agree they tend to think that scholars and the millions that believe them cannot be wrong. They prefer to be deceived, give up their time and money in the hope that some good will come from such men.

    Joseph

  • oompa
    oompa

    btt...wow, very different opinions here.................oompa

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